Struggling with spell lists!

[Morrus]

However, I get the feeling that this gives the magical traditions twice as many abilities as the non-magical traditions (thematic features only, no spells).

Sure, I can see that. I don't think that a spell list is worth much in itself - the MAG increase is the key thing here. Additional spell lists make you more versatile, but they don't make you more powerful. A spell list just unlocks access to stuff - it's saying "hey, now you can use your high MAG score with fire as well as plants", kinda like a soldier ability saying "hey, now you can use your high AGI score with a pistol as well as a rifle!"

 

[Morrus]

One thought I've had is to use EoM to design the monster-style spell lists, and have them use tags. So a spell list might be tagged evil, fire. The necromancer might have access to evil spell lists. The druid to nature spell lists. A spell list can have any number of tags, and that defines whether a tradition has access to it.

Then, of course, we get the "how many lists?" issue. As mentioned before, I want the mage and cleric to have more lists, showing their generalist nature, and the others to have more focused, fewer lists.

Perhaps lists can have Virtue tags (good, evil) and good clerics cannot use evil lists and vice versa.

One thought was to start small. A tradition gives you a spell list when you first take it; mage and cleric give you two. Most of the specialized traditions require level III of mage or cleric, so you can't bounce around taking loads just for the spell lists. Then you need to gain them in-play by spending XP.

This is all just general thoughts right now.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

That is pretty much what I meant by the use of Spheres/Domains/Colors... limiting the options to a tradition down to a small set. The generalist traditions would continue to expand access to the different S/D/C/? while a specialists tradition narrows into the ones they already have.

Slice the S/D/C/? by element type {similar to the 11 Color breakout in the previous post} and grant one set for each Rank of a generalist tradition. The player then picks from the Action keywords to link up with their available elements. Specialist traditions could continue expanding their Action keyword sets but would be limited to the S/D/C/? sets that they had already gained. That would be 9 elements for most Specialist traditions.

Combine this wil the monster style "Spell Groups" that are tagged by element types. Allow casters to select a Spell Group as a signature spell at Rank I, granting access to the entire spell group.

As to how many Action keywords to gain at each level, I would say 2 with the generalists gaining an additional 1. At Rank III this would mean a generalist Mage would have access to 3 S/D/C/? slices and have 9 spell lists, assuming they don't purchase any extra lists. That may seem like a lot, but remember there are over 100 spell list combinations. From there a specialist wizard would still have plenty of lists to choose from without gaining additions S/D/C/?s


On a side note, I would like to see a linkage to the mental attributes. Have the player identify a mental attribute that they use for casting and that becomes their cap on signature spells, or sets the attribute that most influences whether the spell affects the target.
Mainly I want this as a role-playing flavour peice that shows the difference between those that enforce their will on the surroundings {WIL}, use arcane/divine knowledge {LOG}, play to the harmonies of magic {Cha}, or are inately magical {INT}.

 

[jrowland]

One thought was to start small. A tradition gives you a spell list when you first take it; mage and cleric give you two. Most of the specialized traditions require level III of mage or cleric, so you can't bounce around taking loads just for the spell lists. Then you need to gain them in-play by spending XP.

I think for each tradition 1-3 choices is probably best to start (you can always publish a new book of spell lists ) with 1-3 lists that are "rank 2" and 1-3 lists that are "rank 3" minimum. In addition to tradition, you could have a few general lists (hedge lists, if you will) so a mage, for example, could choose a list from either the general(hedge) list or Rank 1 Mage lists. When he hits rank 2 he could choose General (hedge) or Mage from rank 1 or rank 2 lists, etc.

For the General (hedge) Lists, you could have some cross-talk with the tradition lists. A "Wither Plant" spell could be both on the General (hedge) list and say a cleric (druid?) list focusing on all things plant.

I think if a say no more than 30% of the spells on a list appear elsewhere, its not too terrible, dropping as you gain ranks (ie rank 3 list should be almost entirely unique). That way you won't go so crazy fitting spells into lists.

Most important of all: Just slap it together, playtesters will likely shred whatever you do anyway, so let them do all the work

 

[Morrus]

OK, take a look at this. It's a rough draft and very subject to opinion. The spell lists themselves are built using EoM, but a character doesn't have to directly interact with EoM unless he/she decides to start creating spell lists.

The thing I like about this is that new spell-lists of any theme can be created ad infinitum, and simply by tagging them with secrets you can give existing traditions access to them. If sometime in a year's time I make a new fiery spell-list, I just tag it [fire] and the firemage is able to learn it, because he knows the secret of fire. He can learn any spell lists tagged with [fire].

So we have three levels now:

Traditions which discover...
Secrets which provide access to...
Spell Lists.

You still have to learn spell lists by spending XP, but the Secrets come for free. You can even give Secrets as treasure. Imagine a quest to discover the lost secret of fish. Wait, maybe that's not the best example. But you get my meaning!

 

[RisTigger]

Reading over this a few times, I've got a few reservations.

My biggest one is, what is a secret? I understand it gives you the ability to control the magical nature of a substance, but what is it? A wand? A scroll? A fish? Thematically, a secret doesn't tell me much. How can it be loots? The same goes for a spell list. I think in the May doc it was an actual list but has that changed?

So can you build your own spell list? This is all just a generic list for those that don't have the time or creativity to make one? Or for the GM to get spells on the fly?

And if you can make your own spell list, does it have to be held down by a single secret? As long as you have access to the secrets, shouldn't you be able to make your own custom spell list from those secrets? It can give your list a bit of flavor rather than just be a static thing. It's also easier to think up spells if you have access to multiple secrets instead of needing to make a spell list for each one.

I like secrets though. It's an interesting idea that gives your mage a unique spin but I feel right now it's kind of limited because of what I said above.

 

[Morrus]

A secret is information. Maybe you discover it, or find it on a scroll, or get taught it. Depending on your offered flavour, it might be a word of power, a true name, a formula, an equation, or a treatise. Think of it as an ingredient.

Yes, you can use EoM to make your own spell lists (they probably need a different name to avoid confusion with the EoM term). Those in that doc are included as examples. Many folks will likely just use the premade ones. Others might like to try designing their own.

 

[jrowland]

I like it! making your own lists really helps, but having a few pre-made is a good choice as well.

Just to be clear:

You have a tradition (Mage or Cleric)

The tradition gives you access to Secrets, although you can learn a secret through roleplaying/treasure/boon etc. Secrets have a knowledge/lore component to them but also grant access to Spell Lists that have the Secret keyword/tag.

You can spend XP to learn a Spell list that has a keyword/tag that matches one of your secrets known.

You can also create your own spells through EoM, so effectively create your own list (themed or not as you wish) but what Secret would it have? Can you create your Secret to tag the list with? Or can you only create lists with secrets you know? I think that will need a few words to clarify.

Otherwise it looks good.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

This looks good, just expand on how the 'Secret Spell Lists' are created from EoM spell lists.

Also, your samples are all Element themed secrets. I assume you can have Action themed secrets.. so the secret of Summoning would have a list of various summoning spells.

As to a name to differential secret spell lists from EoM spell lists, the possibilities include:
- Grimoire
- Cyprianus
- Tome
- Svarteboken {black book}
- Manual
- Script

Unfortunately these words tend towards the conceit of a written document

 

[Morrus]

I was thinking of using the word "path" somehow. A spell path? A path of power? I like that it implies a themed progression - you're mastering fire more and more.