Stuff that still bugs me about 4e

[ExploderWizard]

As for PCs not having it, the problem there is that what prevents them from using it on the BBEG Solo? Using it on a regular monster is fine, or even an elite, but when you're down to that Solo encounter, a few bad saves on the side of the GM might turn that encounter anti-climatic.

This is the problem. Beating down powers and abilities with a nerf stick until its not worth having them anymore. When the design prevents the use of varied and interesting abilities (and not just the ones that deal damage and perhaps add a status effect that gets shrugged off in a round) purely on the basis that it just MIGHT ( oh noes) get used in a major conflict that would really matter to the PC's and give them a sense of accomplishment then there is a problem.

Giving PC's balloon monsters to pop as a consolation prize doesn't quite cut it.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

And if you noticed, those kinds of effects are only available at the Paragon and Epic tier.

And if you noticed, in other editions, save or dies didn't appear till spel level 4-5 (CL 7-10), so how have things changed, then?

As for PCs not having it, the problem there is that what prevents them from using it on the BBEG Solo? Using it on a regular monster is fine, or even an elite, but when you're down to that Solo encounter, a few bad saves on the side of the GM might turn that encounter anti-climatic.

Death Ward. Level FOUR spell. Not to mention "mundane" defenses like tricking them to waste a SoD on an illusory double or henchmen dressed like you... Of course, that only prevents them using it early, but I've never heard of a DM complaining about a SoD ending a fight a few rounds in. It's no longer "anti-climactic" by then.

And on the side of the GM, I've been permanently stunned/dazed by my players and that's almost as bad as Save or Die.

Except if said BBEG has allies to cure those things, he can keep fighting. Curing death mid-fight is slightly more difficult. Yes, there's some Spell Compendium spells, but that's about it. And they have to be a move action away to use those in time. There's also a SpC spell that brings back a dead person for a short while and gives him bonuses against the one that killed him. If a BBEG's henchman did THAT after a SoD, now wouldn't that be anti-anti-climactic?

And if you're trying to say doing instant death to the players is no worse than stunning them...I'm not even going to bother arguing with you.

 

[Zsig]

From what I can remember right now, the only things that bugs me about 4E are:

1) Clerics and their Gods. Basicly, the choice of your deity has no impact on your character...

2) Minions. I like the idea, but not the sort of attitude they lead the players into.

3) Ritual Scrolls. I'm fine with the books, but the scrolls make no sense. They cost the same as the books, you still need to spend material components, they have half casting time (which IMO is irrelevant since we're talking about rituals anyway), and ok, they can be used by anyone.

But then, honestly, why would an anti-social wizard on his solitary tower ever want to make a scroll which only purpose is to help those that need it? He wouldn't even get any profit by selling it!

 

[CardinalXimenes]

This is the problem. Beating down powers and abilities with a nerf stick until its not worth having them anymore. When the design prevents the use of varied and interesting abilities (and not just the ones that deal damage and perhaps add a status effect that gets shrugged off in a round) purely on the basis that it just MIGHT ( oh noes) get used in a major conflict that would really matter to the PC's and give them a sense of accomplishment then there is a problem.

I can't say that I've ever gotten much sense of accomplishment over the BBEG having bad luck with his saving throws. Single-target SoDs aren't just possible bosskillers, they're _ideal_ bosskillers. The fewer you have, the less likely you are to fire one at a mook, and the more likely your players will have the basic common sense to reserve it in hopes of a one-round knockout. Players will use these powers against the BBEG every single time unless forcibly prevented from doing so. Rocket tag with the RNG just doesn't excite me.

 

[charlesatan]

And if you noticed, in other editions, save or dies didn't appear till spel level 4-5 (CL 7-10), so how have things changed, then?

Not much change, just worth mentioning.

Death Ward. Level FOUR spell. Not to mention "mundane" defenses like tricking them to waste a SoD on an illusory double or henchmen dressed like you... Of course, that only prevents them using it early, but I've never heard of a DM complaining about a SoD ending a fight a few rounds in. It's no longer "anti-climactic" by then.

I don't want to get into a 3E vs 4E argument. Suffice to say, the former was an escalation of immunities on both sides of the table (immune to crits, immune to various elements, immune to death, etc.) to the point that usage of several abilities on the player's side (i.e. sneak attack) became frustrating ("why can't I use this ability?" and so on).

I've used illusions, fakes, and the like during my time but that only work a) so many times and b) on only so many enemies. Like that wild, rampaging beast (i.e. Tarrasque) isn't going to be a planner...

Except if said BBEG has allies to cure those things, he can keep fighting. Curing death mid-fight is slightly more difficult. Yes, there's some Spell Compendium spells, but that's about it. And they have to be a move action away to use those in time. There's also a SpC spell that brings back a dead person for a short while and gives him bonuses against the one that killed him. If a BBEG's henchman did THAT after a SoD, now wouldn't that be anti-anti-climactic?

Again, those are ad-hoc solutions. Sometimes, the villain isn't going to have a support staff. Or healers. (And 3.xx encounter design is based on 4 PCs vs 1 Monster.)

And if you're trying to say doing instant death to the players is no worse than stunning them...I'm not even going to bother arguing with you.

It's frustrating on my part but the players still have to earn their keep. During the stunned time, the players still have to pound on the creature instead of calling it quits after successfully casting Finger of Death or something similar. And I can still break out of the stunned condition after making a successful save.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

1) Clerics and their Gods. Basicly, the choice of your deity has no impact on your character...

I'll bypass the "it impacts the way you roleplay your PC" stance since I assume you mean it has no mechanical impact. Your choice of deity opens up divine feats that only clerics of your faith may choose. Kind of like choosing your deity in third edition gave you your domain choices/powers.

 

[Greg K]

My issues are:
- Clerics and Deities
- paladin's divine challenge
- several of the divine class abilities
- per encounter/dailly abilities (yes, previous editions have dailies, but I wanted them gone)
- removal of skill ranks
- 1/2 level bonus to ability checks
- healing
- rituals: I like these for thing like raise dead, communing, summoning, exorcism, etc. but not for many of the other things being covered.
- how daily magic items work
- the Monster Manual
- what I have seen of the Adventurer's Vault

I really want to like 4e, because it institutes some remaining things from my pre 3e questionaire ( e.g, removing nonbiological abilities from race, toning down spellcasters) or that I wanted to see after 3e was released (i.e, unified save progression and 4e style multiclassing)

 

[Zsig]

I'll bypass the "it impacts the way you roleplay your PC" stance since I assume you mean it has no mechanical impact. Your choice of deity opens up divine feats that only clerics of your faith may choose. Kind of like choosing your deity in third edition gave you your domain choices/powers.

Yeah, there's supposed to be a "mechanically" there somewhere... my bad.

The feat that you can --and they're not free, and even if you pay to get it you still share it with another 2 Channel Divinity abilities-- get doesn't even come close to the granted powerS and domain spells we had on 3rd edition.

 

[Jack99]

2) Minions. I like the idea, but not the sort of attitude they lead the players into.

Care to expand on that?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Death Ward. Level FOUR spell. Not to mention "mundane" defenses like tricking them to waste a SoD on an illusory double or henchmen dressed like you... Of course, that only prevents them using it early, but I've never heard of a DM complaining about a SoD ending a fight a few rounds in. It's no longer "anti-climactic" by then.

Little makes playing PCs or running monsters more tedious and "bureaucratic" then having to have several buff spells active to just get on equal ground to your respective opposition. Rules Mastery (use these spells to gain maximum effectiveness) combined with book-keeping is a good way to remind me I am just playing a game.

And having to come up with ways to defeat player character abilities is also something that I as the DM don't like. I want them to use their abilities, and if I "pre-script" all defenses against their known tactics and spells. It just cheapens their abilities, and they begin to ask why they even have these abilities when they don't get to use them when it really counts?