Stupid High Skill Checks and Saves

[Ravilah]

I was just wondering if anyone (specifically DMs) has ever found that by about level 10, most PCs have Spot/Listen checks so out of this world that nothing short of a shadowdancer wearing a Cloak of Elvenkind at Midnight has much chance of successfully staying unseen or unheard.

By the same token, my players seem to crank out 18-20+ on their saves (their WEAK saves) with annoying regularity. It's at the point where I don't bother throwing a spell at them unless it has negative effects even with a successful save.

I mean, it's not like they always roll above a 20, but since a villain/monster only has an average of 3-5 rounds before it's taken down, I find it imprudent to waste a precious round on something that has such a good chance of being shrugged off.

My players are all better at crunching numbers and putting together powerful class combos than I am. And I hesitate to pile a lot of magic items on my evil wizards, ect. lest the players then get to loot them--making them more unstoppable than ever.

It just occurred to me that that this sounds a bit like it's DM vs. Player. Well it IS dammit!

<Ahem> Sorry. Not really. I just can't seem to find the happy medium between easy and impossible. And just once in a while I'd like my players to get surprised in an ambush.

Sorry for the rant.

R

 

[Caedrus]

I feel your pain, Ravilah. I have the same problem with my group. They aren't min-maxers or powergamers (although most of them can build very capable characters), but it seems like no matter what I throw at them they walk right through it without a scratch. They annihilate my NPC's or monsters in one or two rounds and I barely do any damage to them! Like you said, it's not necessarily DM vs. players, but sometimes you feel you have to adopt that mentality just to challenge them, and that can be very frustrating. Unfortunately I haven't been able to get around this just yet, but if I figure anything out I will post my victory, I mean strategy.

 

[shilsen]

One thing that it sounds like you need to remind yourself is that if you run D&D mostly as written, then characters at level 10 are not, by any stretch of the imagination, normal humans. They are superheroes in fantasy clothing, or, if you prefer, mythological figures.

Batman wouldn't get surprised by a normal hoodlum hiding in an alley, but the Joker can pull a trick over him. Cuchulainn would never be killed by a single spell, however deadly. That's what you're dealing with at 10th lvl. Your PCs are supposed to be unstoppable by normal human enemies. And enemies close to their level shouldn't have any trouble challenging them (actually CR5 and upwards enemies can give 10th lvl PCs a very hard time if done right).

My players are all better at crunching numbers and putting together powerful class combos than I am. And I hesitate to pile a lot of magic items on my evil wizards, ect. lest the players then get to loot them--making them more unstoppable than ever.

Now that's another matter. If you have trouble challenging them mechanically, the easiest thing to do is use published material and, even better, ask for help here on ENWorld. Provide a general situation and a general level of opposition you need, and I'm sure you'll get more than enough good answers.

It just occurred to me that that this sounds a bit like it's DM vs. Player. Well it IS dammit!

Oooh - that's not so good!

<Ahem> Sorry. Not really. I just can't seem to find the happy medium between easy and impossible. And just once in a while I'd like my players to get surprised in an ambush.

Okay, that's better. If you want them ambushed, it really is quite simple. Use appropriately skilled people. If they're 10th lvl, as mentioned above, a bunch of town guards shouldn't be able to ambush them. But when those three vampire ninjas want to, they sure as hell will. No, seriously, check the stats for vampires. Those things are scary at sneaking around. A CR 8 vampire can have a Hide and Move Silently bonus in the 30+ range.

 

[Rystil Arden]

By level 10, if the NPC is expecting them to fail a DC 18 save, she is making a critical error in judgment. Let's assume the fight is supposed to be non-trivial--If the NPC is part of a group, she'll have at least level 5 spells, probably higher if she is alone. Even without any sort of Spell Focus, the DCs really should be higher than 18, since the base is 15 + Int for level 5 spells.

For comparison, in SCAP, our 3rd-level Gnome Illusionist PC had DCs that were, let me see...20 Int (thanks to +2 from the Circlet I crafted him), +1 Gnome, +2 Greater Spell Focus, +1 Shadow Weave, so he had DC 20 Colour Sprays. At level 3, with a level 1 spell. I would expect that to scale to at least DC 25 for his level 5 spells at level 9, and that's assuming he doesn't grab a Circlet +4 by then. If he does, that's DC 26.

No need to make any sort of power combos--just if you want the NPC to use spells with saves, be sure to make a build with competitive save DCs. Level 10 PCs are going to probably have a +3 Cloak of Resistance (and maybe a +4), and +3 base to weak saves. Assuming no other conditional bonuses, if they have reasonable stats in Dex and Con (14+), they'll make DC 18 more than half the time on their weakest save.


EDIT: Or basically--what Shilsen said! At level 10, don't send mooklings--send cool challenges

 

[Piratecat]

The PCs in my low-epic game still fail saves fairly often; a fight last month had 6 PCs insane, and 3 swallowed, at one time due to failed saves or checks. Mind you, some of their skill checks are delightfully high -- the 22nd lvl monk can roll a 1 and get 186 on his running jump check! -- but it just means that they're way, way better than most people. When they fight, they aren't fighting "most people", and so they tell me they still feel challenged.

If you need to increase their spell DCs, I'd advise that you not feel bad at all about giving NPCs higher stats than normal. Beef up the monsters as well, and see if you can learn more about tactics. There is nothing more fun as a DM than beating up the party with a NPC three levels lower than they are.

 

[blargney the second]

If you want to beef up your NPCs without giving the PCs loot, give a serious look at grafts.
-blarg

 

[WhatGravitas]

Okay, that's better. If you want them ambushed, it really is quite simple. Use appropriately skilled people. If they're 10th lvl, as mentioned above, a bunch of town guards shouldn't be able to ambush them. But when those three vampire ninjas want to, they sure as hell will. No, seriously, check the stats for vampires. Those things are scary at sneaking around. A CR 8 vampire can have a Hide and Move Silently bonus in the 30+ range.

Don't forget invisibility, scrying and teleporting. From 10th level onwards, people don't do mundane ambushes. They rush in with improved invisibility, appearing about 60 ft. away from the PCs with a teleport scroll, and pepper them from nowhere with their nacklaces of fireballs.

The PCs can do such stuff, such the NPCs are equally powerful. And note, that I've only listed consumable items, so even if the PCs get some of this stuff, it won't bother me more than once.

Disclaimer: That's EvilDM (TM) -mode. Don't overdo it, or you'll get a TPK, not fun. Reserve such stuff for events where they *really* annoy a BBEG.

 

[JustKim]

nothing short of a shadowdancer wearing a Cloak of Elvenkind at Midnight has much chance of successfully staying unseen or unheard.

When I read this line, things clicked.

The shadowdancer PrC does not help a character's hide check. It can help her to make a hide check, but they are not actually any better at remaining hidden. Darkness restricts visibility, but also does not improve a hide check. The only edge this character actually has is +5 from a cloak.
Now you may think I'm just being anal, but there is a point to this. I think there's a difference between what you logically think should challenge the players, and what actually does by the game rules.

If you just don't have a head for the rules, maybe you should not be running the game. Failing that, my advice is to cheat.
Your players have the advantage over you because they understand how the rules work better than you. Maybe they are taking things from books you haven't read and picking up abilities you haven't considered the ramifications of. Meanwhile, you're hoping to ambush them with rogues in cloaks at night. If you could crunch numbers like them, if you used the same kinds of tricks, you could legitimately challenge them, but it is easier to apply some fiat.

Want someone to stay hidden? Give them a +10 bonus to hide checks. Want PCs to fail their saving throws? Put them in a situation that you think should apply a -6 or worse penalty to their saves and then run with it. Raise the enemy spellcaster's Intelligence to increase the saving throw DCs of his spells. Raise it by a lot if you need to. If it doesn't work the first time, raise it by more the second time.

 

[RichGreen]

If you need to increase their spell DCs, I'd advise that you not feel bad at all about giving NPCs higher stats than normal. Beef up the monsters as well, and see if you can learn more about tactics. There is nothing more fun as a DM than beating up the party with a NPC three levels lower than they are.

I agree with this: give spellcasting NPCs 18 in their prime stat and allow them stat bumps and ability boost magic items too. There is an item in one of Monte Cook's modules (Demon God's Fane, maybe) called an inherent power boost amulet that raises the save DCs on a mo monster's spell-like abilities. These can be +1, +2 etc

I don't have the Spot problem -- whatever game I run, the PCs always seem to blunder into even the most rubbish ambushes!

Cheers


Richard

 

[sukael]

my advice is to cheat.

I'll second that.