Stupid High Skill Checks and Saves

[Stalker0]

For saves, I don't know what kind of stuff your pcs have, but a +20 to save at 10th should not be happening unless they are a paladin.

At 20th level, you have a +6 base to weak saves, +5 cloak of resistance = +11. So unless they have a 28 in their stats, their saves aren't that high.

A wizard with a good int casting his big spells should not have a problem beating a character's weak save. That's the key, if your attacking the strong save I can feel your pain, but the weak save is usually pretty darn weak.

As for spot checks, I completely agree with you but for a different reason. Its not that the pcs have massive spot checks, its that a party tends to get 4 different spot checks vs the one hide check of the hider. With the way the d20 system tends to go, hiders just have a terrible chance under those conditions.

 

[William drake]

I was just wondering if anyone (specifically DMs) has ever found that by about level 10, most PCs have Spot/Listen checks so out of this world that nothing short of a shadowdancer wearing a Cloak of Elvenkind at Midnight has much chance of successfully staying unseen or unheard.

By the same token, my players seem to crank out 18-20+ on their saves (their WEAK saves) with annoying regularity. It's at the point where I don't bother throwing a spell at them unless it has negative effects even with a successful save.

I mean, it's not like they always roll above a 20, but since a villain/monster only has an average of 3-5 rounds before it's taken down, I find it imprudent to waste a precious round on something that has such a good chance of being shrugged off.

My players are all better at crunching numbers and putting together powerful class combos than I am. And I hesitate to pile a lot of magic items on my evil wizards, ect. lest the players then get to loot them--making them more unstoppable than ever.

It just occurred to me that that this sounds a bit like it's DM vs. Player. Well it IS dammit!

<Ahem> Sorry. Not really. I just can't seem to find the happy medium between easy and impossible. And just once in a while I'd like my players to get surprised in an ambush.

Sorry for the rant.

R

Ahhhh....now you've seen the truth. D&D is flawed. Its like a video game where in later levels you just trash anything that isn't either: as big as the screen, or the final boss.


A few tips. Start over for one since if you throw in these new rules now, you might piss of your players.

First, I guess, even though you didnt say it, that your players also almost able to hit anything you throw at them, they never miss. This, like everything else, but be limited.


Make their progression every other level: don't let them get the +2 to their attack, untill third level, and then their +3 at forth. Same thing with the skill points, hold them back every other level. This will help with that. Also, take out the exp rules. Now make the game so that level growth is based upon RP'ing, and involvment in the game. Set a standard. Now make it so that it takes two nights of gaming to reach second level, and three nights of gaming to reach third. I did this with a part for 3years, and they went to epic level at a nice pace that didn't make anyone mad; but that might not work for your group.



IF they don't go for these things, give them what they want. And see how long it takes them to become bored with how powerful they are, how easy things have become.

The key to a good game is making the simple things, unique. Making the magical things rare, and wonderous. Make it so that their is only One flaming sword in the world, give it a name and a history...do this with a few other items.

But for all of this to work as I've said, you must tone down magic in many ways. It takes some work, but you can do it if you want.


If you have questions, just ask. I've recently found that low level magic grity style worlds are my thing, I don't think I will ever play Forgotten Realms level of gameplay again.


Later.


Game On

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Hi Ravilah,

There are quite a few spells and effects that can chip away at your PCs saves. Even better though, go the route of no-save spells. Some nice necromancy spells can normally give your enemies a boost (or more to the point your PCs some penalties). Rip out a few Ray of Enfeeblements and Enervations and make your PCs feel the pain. Make sure you have a few opponents too so that your PCs are forced not to concentrate all their fire on the biggest enemy (possibly making the biggest enemy not so obvious). This will give yourself more time to make one of those spells actually work.

And finally, sometimes its good to let the players win and win big. Just as long as there's a spectrum of success and failure to make the extremes just that little more vibrant.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

PS: Your problems might be a little more ingrained than what some of these ideas may fix. Our group plays by the book with no house rules - even down to the 4d6 drop the lowest for attribute score creation. In terms of treasure they are a fraction ahead of schedule (half a level) but at 13th level, this does not make too much difference. If you find yourself having difficulties because you've introduced some real PC power-up house rules or have handed over way too many goodies, here is your central problem. If this is the case, you need to sit your players down and have a group chat about bringing them back a little for the benefits of all. Sometimes though players get into a real power hungry mindset and won't stand for anything but the most optimal. You need flexible players in this regard.

PSS: One thing I have found is that if your PCs are artificially enhanced (due to house rules/excess extravagant equipment/overpowered combinations), then when you do challenge them, the normally large challenge sweetspot is vastly reduced. That is, the combat outcome normally ends up either enemy quickly killed/PCs quickly overcome and killed. If you can pull back the PCs power a little, you get a nice big in-between chunk of: one or two PCs down (but not killed) and the enemy dispatched with much tension and excitement. The funny thing is, if you play by the rules, the D&D rules set works really really well.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Ahhhh....now you've seen the truth. D&D is flawed.

No rule set is perfect and for all I know, such will forever be the case. However, as I mentioned in my post above, normally the problem is of the DMs making. I have forced my group to follow the rules for an entire campaign (and by this, I mean core and complete series with NO houserules) and the results have been a little surprising. From this experience, I have not had a problem with the D&D ruleset and everyone has had a great time with literally zero rules complaints.

Start tinkering with it (which for some is half if not most of the fun) and you have to tinker with other things to keep the balance (and then keep tinkering with things to try to keep the balance as the PCs invariably keep changing). As fun as it is to cook something up how you like it, if you follow a recipe and then decide that you prefer low-fat ingredients and a little less spice, there's no point complaining that the meal didn't come out quite how you envisaged. Is this the mistake of the recipe or the cook? If you like grim and gritty, best to find a new recipe/system rather than blaming the old one me thinks.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Olaf the Stout]

It's not cheating; it's proactively DMing to make the game fun!

You should work in sales!

Olaf the Stout

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

While the other classes - how many of them bolster their cross-class spot at 2 skill points per, to get 5 ranks + wisdom bonus at this level?

Funny, that. In our games, we have characters who spot stuff, and the other characters can't, and the latter don't see a point in throwing points down a hole to still fail the super-duper-high DC Spot checks.

In our current Spelljammer game, my gnome warlock (Wis 8!) took Voidsense just so he wouldn't have to try and spot anything.

Brad

 

[pawsplay]

Now that's another matter. If you have trouble challenging them mechanically, the easiest thing to do is use published material and, even better, ask for help here on ENWorld. Provide a general situation and a general level of opposition you need, and I'm sure you'll get more than enough good answers.

Yeah, we can give you Mild, Spicy, or TPK, anything you like.

As for high skill checks... if the spotter is the opposite and equivalent to a rogue of the level wearing a cloak of elvenkind etc etc than it's only logical it would take similar efforts to hide.

 

[Pbartender]

If a GMs breaking the rules and that makes the game more fun, who cares?

As much as I agree with PC's original sentiment, I have to point this out:

Who cares? Players like this...

My players are all better at crunching numbers and putting together powerful class combos than I am.

...very well might care, depending on their attitudes. It won't be tough for these sorts of players to figure out when the DM is cheating. There'd be an even chance that they go Rule Lawyer on him and call him out on it.

If you do this, Ravilah, just be aware that not all players will take it in stride, when or if they realize it. In the past, I've seen campaigns fall apart because of it.

 

[pawsplay]

Who can argue with that statement?

Just bear in mind that for some players, breaking the rules immediately makes a game "not fun". Proceed with caution.

For ALL players, it's just a matter of debate what constitutes a "rule" that must be adhered to.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

When I read this line, things clicked.

The shadowdancer PrC does not help a character's hide check. It can help her to make a hide check, but they are not actually any better at remaining hidden. Darkness restricts visibility, but also does not improve a hide check. The only edge this character actually has is +5 from a cloak.
Now you may think I'm just being anal, but there is a point to this. I think there's a difference between what you logically think should challenge the players, and what actually does by the game rules.

If you just don't have a head for the rules, maybe you should not be running the game. Failing that, my advice is to cheat.
Your players have the advantage over you because they understand how the rules work better than you. Maybe they are taking things from books you haven't read and picking up abilities you haven't considered the ramifications of. Meanwhile, you're hoping to ambush them with rogues in cloaks at night. If you could crunch numbers like them, if you used the same kinds of tricks, you could legitimately challenge them, but it is easier to apply some fiat.

Want someone to stay hidden? Give them a +10 bonus to hide checks. Want PCs to fail their saving throws? Put them in a situation that you think should apply a -6 or worse penalty to their saves and then run with it. Raise the enemy spellcaster's Intelligence to increase the saving throw DCs of his spells. Raise it by a lot if you need to. If it doesn't work the first time, raise it by more the second time.

Yeah sure, lets throw all rules and meaningful actions out the window and you can just tell them how the session ends! The game will be so much more fun without those pesky players impacting it!

Reminds me of my first edition games.