D&D General Styles of Roleplaying and Characters

[Swarmkeeper]

Apologies - Inspiring Leader.

Same argument applies though.

I see that people have said that since it "only" grants temporary HP, it's not telling you what you feel. That's not what the feat states though. My inspiring words make you feel so good that you are now stronger than you were before.

How about we quote the feat for accuracy?

"You can spend 10 minutes inspiring your companions, shoring up their resolve to fight."

If that reads to you as some sort of directive to roleplay a certain emotion for a character, I'm not sure there's much left to discuss, IMO.

 

[Oofta]

Oofta, I’m just asking you what the difference is. I believe there is a difference. I’m not gonna tell you what you say is wrong. If the distinction is clear to you, then I expect you can explain it.

If you can’t, that’s also fine, but then just say that. Don’t act like there’s some failing on my part.

The distinction is crystal clear to me and I don't mean to be insulting but having knowledge and what you think or do with that knowledge are completely different things.

 

[hawkeyefan]

The distinction is crystal clear to me and I don't mean to be insulting but having knowledge and what you think or do with that knowledge are completely different things.

Right. But what I’m asking is why are you okay with a DM deciding one for you, and not the other?

It’s fine that you feel that way, I’m just hoping to understand why.

To me they are all mental aspects of my character. So what makes one okay for you and not the other?

 

[Lanefan]

Okay, gotcha. Thanks for clarifying.

So a DM determining what you may or may not know, or using dice to determine it is acceptable. Understood.

So what’s the significant difference if the DM or mechanics determine how your character feels or reacts to a situation?

Simple: the difference between fact and emotion.

It's a fact that at the moment of asking I know (or don't) what business is on a specific street corner. It's an emotion if that knowledge (or lack of) engenders any response from or within me.

I accept that there is a difference; I’m not challenging anyone’s preference. I myself don’t really like when I play D&D and the DM moves into that space.

But what is it that makes one area acceptable, and the other not?

Easy. A DM can tell me facts but she can't control my character's emotional reaction to (and-or physical interaction with) those facts.

 

[Hussar]

Let's back up a second, because a thought occurs that the following quote really hammers home.

Flaws are literally chosen by the player as a roleplaying aid. The player is in control of how the PC behaves accordingly.

What do you think a mental mechanic looks like? Because this, right here, is exactly how mental mechanics should work. You, the player, choose a flaw based on how you see your character. During play, when you lean into that flaw, the game (through the DM) awards you with Inspiration, which you can then use at any point in time going forward.

IOW, the mental mechanics are there to help the player portray that character at the table. The mental mechanics are not there to define the character afterwards or outside of the player's intent.

I think that people maybe have a very skewed idea of how mental mechanics work and that's why we're seeing such pushback. Because this, right here, Flaws, are exactly how a mental mechanic can work in the game.

 

[Hussar]

How about we quote the feat for accuracy?

"You can spend 10 minutes inspiring your companions, shoring up their resolve to fight."

If that reads to you as some sort of directive to roleplay a certain emotion for a character, I'm not sure there's much left to discuss, IMO.

What do you think "shoring up their resolve to fight" means?

Again, it's a simple mechanic, but, this is exactly what a mental mechanic can look like.

This whole "mental mechanics tell me how to behave regardless of how I view my character" thing is something that does not actually exist. This is an invented boogieman that isn't actually seen. Do you really think that people who play games like, say, FATE, are really that different in how they play from you? That this notion of "don't tell me how to play my character" is something that needs to be defended? Of course not. Everyone feels that way.

The reason we keep going around in circles is because we keep talking past one another. Mental mechanics =/= loss of player control any more than regular mechanics do. Do you feel that you no longer control your character when you make an attack roll or a saving throw? The player chose a particular flaw (for example). The mechanics simply reflect that choice.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

What do you think "shoring up their resolve to fight" means?

Again, it's a simple mechanic, but, this is exactly what a mental mechanic can look like.

This whole "mental mechanics tell me how to behave regardless of how I view my character" thing is something that does not actually exist. This is an invented boogieman that isn't actually seen. Do you really think that people who play games like, say, FATE, are really that different in how they play from you? That this notion of "don't tell me how to play my character" is something that needs to be defended? Of course not. Everyone feels that way.

The reason we keep going around in circles is because we keep talking past one another. Mental mechanics =/= loss of player control any more than regular mechanics do. Do you feel that you no longer control your character when you make an attack roll or a saving throw? The player chose a particular flaw (for example). The mechanics simply reflect that choice.

Now, I can certainly agree with what you are saying above.


Contradicting what you say above, though, is your past statements in this very thread, including:

"Insight - tells you that you believe what you are being told."
and
"Any knowledge skill tells you EXACTLY what your character thinks."

How do you reconcile your (seemingly) new stance with these prescriptive statements of how someone must play what their character thinks?

 

[Oofta]

Right. But what I’m asking is why are you okay with a DM deciding one for you, and not the other?

It’s fine that you feel that way, I’m just hoping to understand why.

To me they are all mental aspects of my character. So what makes one okay for you and not the other?

If you see a canine you may or may not know what specific species. Dog? Wolf? Coyote or fox? If it's a dog, what breed?

Unless it's been previously established your knowledge of dogs is pretty random. You be may have had a husky as a kid so you know a lot about them, but you wouldn't know a Scottish Terrier from a Jack Russell. You may even know that huskies are some of the most primitive dog breeds and lack the muscles to raise their eyebrows like most dogs.

But do you like dogs? All dogs, just certain types or are you more of a cat person?

Knowing the type of dog may influence your opinion but your emotional response has to do with basic personality traits. How do you react to the dog? Fear? Even if it seems friendly? Call it over to scratch it's head or back away carefully?

One is just information you may or may not know. The other is how you respond or feel.

But I've answered this multiple times. I'm not going to answer again.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Simple: the difference between fact and emotion.

It's a fact that at the moment of asking I know (or don't) what business is on a specific street corner. It's an emotion if that knowledge (or lack of) engenders any response from or within me.

Okay. I’m not sure I see fact an emotion as mutually exclusive. Like, it’s a fact that I’ve been bewildered at times in this discussion.

But let’s take this and examine it a bit. What is it about the emotional state of a PC that makes it so inviolate by GM or mechanical input? Why is it that it must be only the player to handle this?

Easy. A DM can tell me facts but she can't control my character's emotional reaction to (and-or physical interaction with) those facts.

Well the fact of what store is on a corner is pretty meaningless in our discussion, really. What about facts that are more specifically related to a PC? Elements of their past or details about their family? What they may have done and where? What they may have learned and who they may have met?

These seem more meaningful to compare. Does your fact/emotion distinction apply to all of these? Can the DM tell you these facts as well? Or do you expect to have at least some say on some of them?

 

[pemerton]

Surely effects like Inspiring Leader and Rally, which are obviously non-magical, nevertheless affect the emotional state of those who are granted the temp hp?

What does being granted those temp hp mean otherwise, in the fiction?