Sub Levels -> Alternate Class Features

[Cam Banks]

I found this interesting. I know that with PHB2, WOTC seems to have decided to eschew further development on substitution levels (racial or otherwise) and instead focus on alternate class feature variants, which in many ways do the same thing but without the clunky table and switching-out of whole class levels from the progression.

While looking over Expedition to Castle Ravenloft last night, I realized this decision from R&D must have taken place halfway through EtCR's development. There's a whole sidebar on substitution levels and when/if you may want to use them, retroactively apply them to characters, and so on. Yet, nowhere in the main text does it use "substitution level" as a concept, and instead the Lightbringers use alternate class features.

Was this an oversight during development? Early interviews with the authors seemed to indicate that sub levels were going to make an appearance, but they've been substituted themselves.

This also seems to jibe with WOTC's decision to inform Paizo that it couldn't print substitution levels any longer. Looks as if it's a concept that either has seen further refinement, or lost favor in place of the (much simpler) switching out of class features.

Cheers,
Cam

 

[Glyfair]

This also seems to jibe with WOTC's decision to inform Paizo that it couldn't print substitution levels any longer.

This is new to me. Where was this announced or mentioned?

 

[Cam Banks]

This is new to me. Where was this announced or mentioned?

It's been brought up recently on the Paizo message boards in discussion about the Class Acts section of Dragon magazine.

Cheers,
Cam

 

[Psion]

Well, I can see the argument, but variant class abilties seem a little less tidy to me, and also lack the addition of extra class skills (which are pretty important in the SLs in Planar Handbook.)

 

[Liquidsabre]

Lol sure sounds like D&D needs to just give up on all the individual class abilities and suit up with class talent trees instead ala d20modern already heh. Just introduce new talent trees, would be alot tidier...

 

[Psion]

Lol sure sounds like D&D needs to just give up on all the individual class abilities and suit up with class talent trees instead ala d20modern already heh. Just introduce new talent trees, would be alot tidier...

If it wasn't for the anti-magic vibe, Grim Tales would already be that product.

 

[Cam Banks]

Well, I can see the argument, but variant class abilties seem a little less tidy to me, and also lack the addition of extra class skills (which are pretty important in the SLs in Planar Handbook.)

I imagine that could go under the larger heading of the organization. If Lightbringers should all have Knowledge (religion), even the non-clerics, you could simply have "Knowledge (religion) is always a class skill." It's not as if this is something balanced out by absent features in the sub level examples from older books.

Cheers,
Cam

 

[blargney the second]

Although both are interesting, I much prefer the alternate class features.

 

[D.Shaffer]

Well, I can see the argument, but variant class abilties seem a little less tidy to me, and also lack the addition of extra class skills (which are pretty important in the SLs in Planar Handbook.)

Well, if it's really that important, there's nothing that says you couldnt have 'Alternate Class Ability - Level 1: Blah Blah Blah. Also, gain X, Y, and Z as class skills'. The Alternate Class Abilities, to me, just look like a simplification of the Substitution 'levels' without applying the table effect. If you wanted to keep them racially based, you could even toss in a racial prerequisite.

 

[Psion]

Well, if it's really that important, there's nothing that says you couldnt have 'Alternate Class Ability - Level 1: Blah Blah Blah. Also, gain X, Y, and Z as class skills'. The Alternate Class Abilities, to me, just look like a simplification of the Substitution 'levels' without applying the table effect. If you wanted to keep them racially based, you could even toss in a racial prerequisite.

I'm not seeing why the alternate class abilities is in any way a simplification of substitution levels. They are the same thing. It's just that substitution levels plug into the existing structure and (perhaps more importantly), they are associated into sets allowing a DM to better define what is permissible or desirable in a campaign. SLs are easier to manage AFAIAC.