D&D 5E Subclass System in 5e- Too Much, Too Little, or Just Right (GOLDILOCKS POLL!)

Hey, Goldilocks- is the Subclass System in 5e ....

  • A. Too Limiting

    Votes: 31 38.8%
  • B. Just Right

    Votes: 46 57.5%
  • C. Too Open

    Votes: 3 3.8%

  • Poll closed .

Shiroiken

Legend
I see this suggestion a lot, but I never understood how it would improve the game to switch. To me, it looks like just adding a layer of taxonomy to the classes.
Basically what it does is it takes the general concepts, such as warrior, and gives them all the same benefits at the same points. Then the sub-class differentiates them into archtypes, which also gain benefits, but each sub-class is unique in may aspects (as we see Barbarian vs. Paladin, for example). Then another layer would be added on top of that, which we'll call specialization, which would fit the role of the current sub-classes.

In theory it's supposed to reduce the duplication of abilities that cross between classes (such as extra attack or spellcasting). I used to support this notion, but after seriously reviewing the idea, the benefit isn't worth the cost to make it work. It could work if creating an edition from scratch, but it would only tangentially resemble 5E, just as Pathfinder was to 3E.
 

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Azzy

ᚳᚣᚾᛖᚹᚢᛚᚠ
In the vague vicinity of "just right". Some classes fare better in this respect than others. and overall there could be slight bit more moving parts. But for the most part, I think it's a good job.
 

Aldarc

Legend
I probably prefer either something flexible and modular like Shadow or the Demon Lord or something more basic (and flexible) like AGE. A number of players I have played with have bemoaned the lack of decision points for their character when leveling, apart from spells for spell-casters.
 

I went with too limiting, but I would say it's quite a complex issue. Different classes give over different amounts of power to the subclasses in a way that feels clumsy and inconsistent, rather than highly intentional. Base classes vary a bit in how solidly-designed they are, too, without the subclasses.

Cleric is the outright worst design re: subclasses, not because it's too weak overall, but because it's remarkably both bland and inconsistent (always hard to combine those two but they managed it), and the entire concept of Clerics is messed-up by making the subclass "be" one of the aspects of a god, chosen from a ridiculously tiny list. And there's not much to work with, either.

I agree with people saying this was probably to stop the Cleric being a monster, but it's not a good design, and definitely too limiting in a bad way.

A lot of other classes it feels like because subclasses exist, they didn't actually build the base class in an interesting way, which isn't great.

There's also a big issue where you're kind of supposed to pick the subclass that fits the story/tone of the character you want to roleplay, but the very limited number of subclasses, combined with the wild variance in how powerful they are creates a double-sided problem. Some people pick a very weak or very boring subclass, mechanics-wise, because it's thematically right, and have less fun and feel less effective. Others pick a subclass that might not be a great match thematically, but is mechanically not rubbish, which can be uncomfortable (but is probably less bad than for the game than the inverse at least).

They also bring back the PrC problem, in that some of them are really specific, in a generic game. You can get around this, but it's weird and unnecessary. At least they lowered the specificity early on in 5E.

I think if I was wanting to maintain subclasses in a 6E, I'd want to move more power to them, but also make sure they were more generic, and much more tightly balanced, mechanically. I'd also take the Arcana Unearthed (i.e. Monte Cook d20 book) approach and design all the subclasses for all classes, based on what players wanted, re: archetypes/playstyles. That is very clearly NOT the approach taken with 5E, which has instead been a weird mix of that (in a few cases), tradition (taken to mindless lengths), whimsy (in the bad sense), simulation (which is terrible in this context), just outright arbitrary-ness.

For ultra-specific stuff I'd want another layer of mechanics of some kind, one which was more a matter of flavouring.

A number of players I have played with have bemoaned the lack of decision points for their character when leveling, apart from spells for spell-casters.

I've seen similar, even with the less mechanically-inclined players, which surprised me. I think it was the final straw for the player who usually plays Rogues - he loved 4E and picking his precise abilities and so on (despite never having really done that before) - and with 5E he's now clearly having more fun with classes that have actual choices (like Warlock, particularly).
 

Tales and Chronicles

Jewel of the North, formerly know as vincegetorix
I probably prefer either something flexible and modular like Shadow or the Demon Lord or something more basic (and flexible) like AGE. A number of players I have played with have bemoaned the lack of decision points for their character when leveling, apart from spells for spell-casters.

The best scenario for me would be to have every class based on a similar ''warlock chassis''

1: Main class (ie: Fighter) + Archetype (ranger, weaponmaster, barbarian, eldritch knight, paladin etc)
2: ''invocation-style'' modular talents choice, sometime gated by archetype (ie: Foebane: require: Ranger. Deal +4 damage to favored foe) or (Improved fighting style: requires Fighter. gain X bonus when using Y FS) or (Stormwrath aura. requires Barbarian or Eldrtich knight. Pick one elemental aura from X).
3: ''pact-boon-style'' minor playstyle enhancer (may unlock other gated ''invocations'')
4: ASI

etc

I would not mind if all casters were short-rest based, maybe with a faster slot progression and higher max slot per SR for main casters (Cleric, Sorcerer, an Wizard), same as warlock (warlock, druid and bard IF their other class feature were buffed a little: better wildshape for all druid and more per rest Inspiration for all bard), and half-warlock (paladin, ranger).
 

As a big fan of Shadow of the Demon Lord, I voted too limiting, but I'm also quite happy with the 5e implementation of subclasses.

Like @vincegetorix and @Aldarc my preference would be a modular system.

If i had my dream d&d, it might be a subclass choice at level 3, with features out to perhaps level 9 or so, and then a "prestige class (for want of a better name). Perhaps even a level 15 "legendary class" or something for high level play.

It can just give so much extra replayability and variety to the existing classes, and new subclesses as we know are so much easier to bolt on to the existing chassis.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
The best scenario for me would be to have every class based on a similar ''warlock chassis''

1: Main class (ie: Fighter) + Archetype (ranger, weaponmaster, barbarian, eldritch knight, paladin etc)
2: ''invocation-style'' modular talents choice, sometime gated by archetype (ie: Foebane: require: Ranger. Deal +4 damage to favored foe) or (Improved fighting style: requires Fighter. gain X bonus when using Y FS) or (Stormwrath aura. requires Barbarian or Eldrtich knight. Pick one elemental aura from X).
3: ''pact-boon-style'' minor playstyle enhancer (may unlock other gated ''invocations'')
4: ASI

etc

I would not mind if all casters were short-rest based, maybe with a faster slot progression and higher max slot per SR for main casters (Cleric, Sorcerer, an Wizard), same as warlock (warlock, druid and bard IF their other class feature were buffed a little: better wildshape for all druid and more per rest Inspiration for all bard), and half-warlock (paladin, ranger).
I'd probably argue for a short-rest caster class and a long-rest caster class, because I think a lot of people are attached to those distinct play styles. Just make sure each class has subclasses and invocations that support most of the major playstyles (blaster, buffer, healer, control, etc.).
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
I probably prefer either something flexible and modular like Shadow or the Demon Lord or something more basic (and flexible) like AGE. A number of players I have played with have bemoaned the lack of decision points for their character when leveling, apart from spells for spell-casters.

I think part of that was intentional.

  1. There was a clear design goal to provide a simple fighter, simple barbarian, and simple rogue for the PHB for fans who wanted it. This put a strain on barbarian, fighter and rogue design as they had to make the base classes contain simplistic class features that would only grow in dice and bonuses but not in complexity or scope.
  2. There was a lack of focus and view on the design of the paladin and ranger. This caused their base classes to have simple class features with little growth. It put the complexity solely on the spell casting system.
  3. All the other classes were full casters.
Champions, Berserkers, and Thieves are super popular. Catering to their fans forced those classes to not be defined much by their subclasses powerwise.
 

Li Shenron

Legend
I would say it's very close to being just right.

One small regret is that the Bard subclasses are indeed a bit too thin with only 3 levels worth of abilities. It's understandable because the Bard base class has so many features to allocate in the course of 20 levels, but still with a bit more design effort they could have made it equal to all other classes.

The other, even smaller regret is that Bard, Cleric and Monk have one huge gap of 8-9 levels between consecutive subclass abilities that doesn't feel quite right.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
I also dont get the way some subclasses are about gamestyle (eg Champion) and some are culture (samurai). I prefer the way cleric and wizard subclasses are more organic choices.

Both the Champion and Samurai give you a slight combat buff and a slight roleplay buff.

This is because 90% of the fighter's power comes from the base class. This was to make the class easy for new players and hardcore roleplayers. Your fighter archetype is just a tweak.
 

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