D&D 5E Subclasses not tied to a class?

[Sacrosanct]

I know it sounds contradictory on the surface. How can you have a subclass not be part of a class; it's sort of how the words are defined? Probably why "kit" is a better descriptor, even if they are designed and handled exactly like a subclass.

But anyway, I've been thinking about this. There are a lot or archetypes that could be built like a subclass, but really could fall under more than one class. For example, the iconic ninja. There are ninja that focus on combat (falling under a fighter), those that focus on stealth (falling under rogue), and even some that may focus on trickery and illusion (falling under wizard or sorcerer).

So....that being said, and this is just a mental exercise and I'm not saying this has to be done or anything, could such a thing work in the 5e system? I think the biggest challenge would be when the subclass abilities are gained, as not every class gets the same ability at the same range. E.g., a barbarian subclass gets features at 3, 6, 10, and 14th levels, while the fighter gets theirs at 3, 7, 10, 15, and 18.

The initial solution that comes to mind would be a table with the classes and what levels they get subclass features, and gain your feature, in order, according to that chart.

To expand my example, here is the ninja:

Ninja

3rd level (this is the same for all classes):
Improvised Weapons: You can use almost anything as a weapon, gaining proficiency in any improvised weapon or tool. Base damage is 1d4. This becomes 1d6 at 6th level, 1d8 at 11th level, and 1d10 at 17th level.

Evasion: If not wearing armor, your base AC is 10+DEX+INT

Stealth: If not already proficient, gain the stealth skill.

Tool proficiency: claws (add your prof bonus to all climbing checks when using climbing claws)

Next subclass ability:
Quick Strike: You can the ability to cast misty step as a bonus action. This can be done a number of times per long rest as equal to your intelligence modifier. The first next attack during the same turn of using this ability will be made at advantage.

Next subclass ability:
Vanish: As a reaction, you can cast the blink spell. You can do this a number of times equal to your intelligence modifier per long rest. As an action, you can cast passwall a number of times equal to your intelligence modifier per long rest.

Next subclass ability:
Shadowform: You and your gear become as insubstantial as smoke. You gain immunity to all piercing, slashing, and bludgeoning damage, and can fit through any hole. This ability lasts up to one hour, and can be used once per long rest.

Next subclass ability:
Additional ASI, max ability score increased to 22 (not all classes would get this, only classes with 5 subclass features like the fighter).



For example:
If you are a rogue ninja, you gain the Quick Strike ability at level 9, while a a fighter ninja gets it at level 7.

I'm just thinking of ways to create greater customization without having to create all new classes with their own subclass packages from scratch. This way, you could have your warrior ninja and your stealth ninja and your illusion ninja (and a bunch more) by just adding one single subclass.

Note: The above ninja is just for example purposes. I want this discussion to go around the overall topic of generic subclasses, so don't get hung up on the ninja or it's abilities I listed.

 

[Blue]

I've thought about this same thing before. I wouldn't tie it to level - each base class has a different advancement scheme - just whenever the base class say "subclass feature" you get the next one. Maybe a "minimum level", I haven't compared all of the classes.

 

[Sacrosanct]

I've thought about this same thing before. I wouldn't tie it to level - each base class has a different advancement scheme - just whenever the base class say "subclass feature" you get the next one. Maybe a "minimum level", I haven't compared all of the classes.

Yeah, that's basically what I was going for--ensuring your got your subclass benefit when your core class would normally get it's. The only other thing to watch out for is to try to avoid redundant abilities that might happen with a certain combination.

 

[discosoc]

Sounds more like something a Prestige Class system would be better equipped to handle.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Sounds more like something a Prestige Class system would be better equipped to handle.

I can sort of see that, but I think the problem with that is that it doesn't address my main priority: sticking with the same overall class. If you go prestige, that's basically just multi-classing, and you stop gaining all those abilities of your main class once you go prestige. With something like this, you keep getting better as a fighter, or rogue, or whatever as you level because that's still your core chassis. With prestige, you'd have to have a version for a warrior ninja, stealth ninja, and illusionist ninja, which doesn't address the problem at all (of too many classes and keeping it as simple as possible).

 

[steeldragons]

I think a case could be made for a generic "subclass" system that might be applicable fo rany/all characters.

...a la "Choose Your Own Adventure"...

"Choose Your Own Subclass/Archetype"

How this is- sketchy as it is - developing in my mind would be something along the lines of:
Level 1: Choose Your Base class. Gain those base class features.
Levels 2 & 5: you may choose 2 featured abilities from any subclass.
Levels 6, 10, 13, 15, 18: Choose 1 subclass feature of your choice, from any subclass archetypes.
Levels 4,8,12,16: ASI as normal.
Level 20: Choose capstone from any base class from which you have selected at least 3 archetype features.

Something like that. Those numbers might be wrong...gets you a lot more features than the standard classes receive. But you get the idea.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Sounds more like something a Prestige Class system would be better equipped to handle.

Not unless the new prestige class system were to work like the OP suggestion.

I mean...the point seems to be to NOT have the concept replace class levels, so the prestige class as presented before *can't fill that niche*.

4e's themes could, but only if they replace the ASI/feats part of the game, or we someohow miraculously get everyone to accept a purely additive new layer to the game.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Yes, I'm trying to stick within the same design framework of 5e. I know that limits some things, but on the other hand it's much easier to implement since you're not messing with the core design chassis.

 

[cbwjm]

This is my one main issue with 5e, everyone gains subclass abilities at different levels with only some overlap. I would have preferred each class to gain their subclass at level 1 and then additional abilities at, as an example levels 6, 10, 14, 18 specifically so that non-class specific subclasses could be made which are easily adaptable by any class. Many of the 4e themes I think could expanded into subclasses which can be taken by anyone, but each time I start I run into the issue of different levels of subclasses. I think this is also one of the problems others have with the wizard's theurge tradition, the fact that they get the cleric's highest level ability at 14 before a cleric gets it at 17.

Edit: I should also note, although you've asked not to get hung up on the ninja, that I quite like the concept. It reminds me of the old 1e version which was added on to another class.

 

[Sacrosanct]

This is my one main issue with 5e, everyone gains subclass abilities at different levels with only some overlap. I would have preferred each class to gain their subclass at level 1 and then additional abilities at, as an example levels 6, 10, 14, 18 specifically so that non-class specific subclasses could be made which are easily adaptable by any class. Many of the 4e themes I think could expanded into subclasses which can be taken by anyone, but each time I start I run into the issue of different levels of subclasses. I think this is also one of the problems others have with the wizard's theurge tradition, the fact that they get the cleric's highest level ability at 14 before a cleric gets it at 17.

Edit: I should also note, although you've asked not to get hung up on the ninja, that I quite like the concept. It reminds me of the old 1e version which was added on to another class.

Putting on my designer hat, upon reflection it certainly seems like it would have been a better design to have all classes gain subclass abilities all at the same levels. After all, 5e is already designed with modulatrity in mind, with how classes, subclasses, feats, and backgrounds all work together. I suspect from a design standpoint, this is a hindsight 20/20 thing. If they did do it like that, it would certainly make it easier to do things like this.