D&D (2024) Subclasses should start at 1st level

[payn]

To be honest disallowing multiclassing in 5E/1D&D does basically no damage to the game. There are very few genuine RP concepts which benefit from multiclassing, and 95% of multiclassing is either:

A) System experts exploiting synergies to attempt to make an OP character.

or

B) System noobs/ninnies picking "kewl" classes because they're allowed to and usually creating barely-playable junk characters full of anti-synergy.

Neither of those is a good things and that's the overwhelming majority of 5E multiclassing.

BA makes these trivial.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

BA makes these trivial.

BA? Badass? British Airways?

 

[payn]

BA? Badass? British Airways?

Bounded accuracy.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Bounded accuracy.

Oh I somewhat disagree then.

A better-designed version of 5E could have that be fully true.

But unfortunately 5E and 1D&D aren't designed that way, and you have a lot of abilities based on specific class levels (like getting multiple attacks, and how spell progression works), such that if you MC a lot, you can easily end up drastically less powerful than other PCs, and if you multiclass extremely carefully and only with specific, compatible classes, you can be somewhat more powerful than other PCs. The former is a bigger mechanical issue than the latter, for sure.

Either way, there's virtually nothing genuine to be gained from MC'ing in 5E/1D&D, imho, for the game/group holistically, anyway.

 

[payn]

Oh I somewhat disagree then.

A better-designed version of 5E could have that be fully true.

But unfortunately 5E and 1D&D aren't designed that way, and you have a lot of abilities based on specific class levels (like getting multiple attacks, and how spell progression works), such that if you MC a lot, you can easily end up drastically less powerful than other PCs, and if you multiclass extremely carefully and only with specific, compatible classes, you can be somewhat more powerful than other PCs. The former is a bigger mechanical issue than the latter, for sure.

Either way, there's virtually nothing genuine to be gained from MC'ing in 5E/1D&D, imho, for the game/group holistically, anyway.

Then, make it optional? The gulf is much smaller than editions past and I'm willing to live with it if I can have a non-silo'd hybrid MC approach of games like 4E and PF2.

 

[Yaarel]

Sure.

But the fact that:

A) WotC said they wanted to do that, and then didn't do it.

And

B) The fact that this would obviously invalidate ALL existing subclasses (um I guess except Clerics?)

Mean that WotC are not going to do it so it's about as productive in a 1D&D discussion as suggesting WotC move to having four classes or some other old-favourite axe grind.

WotC should do it because it should be done.

The subclass is an essential component of any character concept.

The subclass needs to find a meaningful mechanical expression at level 1.

 

[Yaarel]

B) The fact that this would obviously invalidate ALL existing subclasses (um I guess except Clerics?)

Besides.

2024 will be rewriting new versions of every subclass anyway. So it doesnt matter if one cant use old 2014 subclasses for the new 2024 classes.

Players who want old subclasses can use the old classes for them, as they are accustomed to do.



The new classes can feature subclass choice at level 1. No problem.

 

[cbwjm]

With the newly aligned subclass structure, subclasses from previous 5e books will be incompatible with oneDnD classes anyway, might as well re-design them so that level one can have a subclass, you wouldn't even need them to have much mechanical weight so that people that multiclass aren't getting loaded up with abilities. As is though, the more I think about it, the more I think that the background skills and feat are going to be your level 1 "subclass" features.

Side note, I hope that the new subclass structure exists across all classes and isn't just the Expert subclass structure, I want my mates, priests, and warriors to have the same structure. That means the if they don't receive level 1 subclasses then the sorcerer, warlock, and cleric shouldn't either because they are so close to making subclasses being able to be used across multiple classes, I'd want to grab the strixhaven UA and rebuild them so that they actually work, which will only really happen if every class has the same structure.

 

[Yaarel]

If the subclass starts at level 1, what would that look like?

The current UA Bard class design space is as follows.

BARD

Level 1
• Spellcasting (cantrip and slot 1)
• Inspiration

Level 2
• Skill Expertise (two)
• Restoration (extra spell known)

Level 3
• Spellcasting (slot 2)
• [Bard Subclass: Lore]

LORE

Level 3
• Cutting Words (extra Inspiration known)
• Extra Skill Proficiencies



At a glance. Level 1 is a bit frontloaded as one would expect.

Level 2 focuses on skills, which is ok. Restoration uses up spell slots, so there is a boost in versatility but not really a boost in power.

Level 3 is ok. A next-higher spell slot is nice. And the subclass adds to it.

But the subclass features themselves are surprisingly weak. Cutting Words uses up an Inspiration slot, so there is a boost in versatility, but not really a boost in power.



LORE SUBCLASS AT LEVEL 1

A simple way to do the Bard subclass at level 1, is to swap the Inspiration. Have the Test Boost for every Bard, plus one more Inspiration that relates to the subclass.

In this case the Lore Bard at level 1 has, both Test Boost and Cutting Words for the Inspirations.

Then at level 3, every Bard gets the Heal Inspiration.



There are also other ways to move features around. The point is, it is easy to choose a subclass at level 1.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

If the subclass starts at level 1, what would that look like?

The current UA Bard class design space is as follows.

BARD

Level 1
• Spellcasting (cantrip and slot 1)
• Inspiration

Level 2
• Skill Expertise (two)
• Restoration (extra spell known)

Level 3
• Spellcasting (slot 2)
• [Bard Subclass: Lore]

LORE

Level 3
• Cutting Words (extra Inspiration known)
• Extra Skill Proficiencies



At a glance. Level 1 is a bit frontloaded as one would expect.

Level 2 focuses on skills, which is ok. Restoration uses up spell slots, so there is a boost in versatility but not really a boost in power.

Level 3 is ok. A next-higher spell slot is nice. And the subclass adds to it.

But the subclass features themselves are surprisingly weak. Cutting Words uses up an Inspiration slot, so there is a boost in versatility, but not really a boost in power.



LORE SUBCLASS AT LEVEL 1

A simple way to do the Bard subclass at level 1, is to swap the Inspiration. Have the Test Boost for every Bard, plus one more Inspiration that relates to the subclass.

In this case the Lore Bard at level 1 has, both Test Boost and Cutting Words for the Inspirations.

Then at level 3, every Bard gets the Heal Inspiration.



There are also other ways to move features around. The point is, it is easy to choose a subclass at level 1.

I already miss the extra magical secret at leve 6. Was exactly the right feature at the right time.

That said, I still think level 2 should be subclass. When making characters with new players, learning how the class works is enough.
A cool Idea could be that in the first 3 levels you can chose when to take the subclass feature, pushing your other features one level back.

If you multiclass, the order is fixed. You may not multiclass if you took subclass until level 3.

A bit more complicated, but it would be having your cake and eat it.