subtle magic systems?

[Afrodyte]

What you've described sounds a lot like Coincidental Magic in White Wolf's Mage: The Ascension. Mages in that game have to keep the results of their spells in the believable and possible ranges to avoid getting slammed by Paradox. Two totally different systems, but you might want to take a peek at some of that stuff for some ideas.

I already own Mage, and I'm already borrowing a few ideas from it. Paradox, while it works for Mage, adds a layer of complexity a bit beyond the scope of the setting since it doesn't focus on magic. The magic that is there simply takes a different form. I do think there should be some sort of cost for doing overt magic, but precisely what cost that should be is beyond me at the moment. Ideally, it should take its toll on a caster's body and mind. For instance: losing control of powers, temporary or permanent insanity related to the powers (paranoid schizophrenia for seers, pyromania for fire mages, etc), gaining the attention of powerful extradimensional entities (for good or ill, usually for ill), changing into another type of creature (black magicians become undead, demons, or devils; fey mages become fey; air/earth/fire/water mages become elementals, etc.), and physical changes related to the gift (air mages become insubstantial while retaining will and consciousness; earth mages become statues; green mages change completely into an animal or plant of some type; etc.). Of course, the nature of the cost depends upon what types of overt magic is used and whether you affected primarily yourself or other people. Magic used on yourself generally changes you into something else. Magic used on others tends to make you lose control of your powers in some way. However, these are not hard-and-fast rules.

As I'm thinking of the system now, it seems like I'm going to have to retool the magic system such that spells can be designed pretty much on the fly while remaining within the parameters of each gift. I'll probably also have to go the Midnight route and make magic something just about anybody can have while still leaving room for those who want to focus on magic. In addition, it seems general guidelines would work better than detailed rules, though I'll need help on how to best execute the specifics. For a while now, I've been thinking of having spellcasting be essentially a level check, though I'm sure other systems could work. I took a look at Elements of Magic, and it seems to offer something of what I'm looking for, although a hard copy would be preferable to PDF format.

 

[Steverooo]

• What is a good way to mechanically represent the difference between subtle and overt magic?

• 
  
  The seen is unsubtle...
  
  

  [*]How should the advantages and disadvantages of subtle and overt magic be represented? I've thought about giving subtle magic higher DCs for recognizing and resisting them with the requirement that they have to work alongside what people would characterize as natural. But that might not be the best way.

  
  Subtle casting times are one action, overt casting times are one minute per what was an action. You could also give overt spells a saving throw bonus (not more than +5), for being so "unbelievable".
  
  

  [*]What about conditions that could change an overt spell to a subtle spell, and vice versa?

  
  I can think of nothing that would make a Fireball subtle... Lightning Bolt, maybe. In those cases, give them the normal casting time.
  
  

  [*]What are some guidelines I should follow for creating more subtle spells, particularly with determing what level they would be?

If you use this, just keep the levels the same.

 

[Verequus]

I took a look at Elements of Magic, and it seems to offer something of what I'm looking for, although a hard copy would be preferable to PDF format.

Just to be sure - you have seen the Revised version? Unfortunately, the original version floats on RPGnow around, too, but both versions are different as AD&D and D&D. Another unfortunately, there isn't even a POD, AFAIK.

 

[Afrodyte]

Just to be sure - you have seen the Revised version? Unfortunately, the original version floats on RPGnow around, too, but both versions are different as AD&D and D&D. Another unfortunately, there isn't even a POD, AFAIK.

All I read were the blurbs about the magic system. I think I read something on both versions. However, now that you mention it, I'll keep a lookout for the revised version.

 

[Chris Tavares]

What you want is a copy of Authentic Thaumaturgy, by Issac Bonewits:

http://www.sjgames.com/thaumaturgy/index.html

It's a magic system supposedly based on "real-world" magic. It's a pretty bloody boring read, really, but it covers exactly what you're talking about.