Sucking the Life Out of Skill Challenges

[the Jester]

Does anyone know which book group skill checks/challenges are in? In the ghoul example given, it's doubtful that all PCs had good Stealth checks. The rest probably thought they'd fail, and might have been asking for maps in an effort to figure out what other kinds of skill checks they could use. (Or they may have felt they just could not contribute, lacking decent Stealth checks.)

IIRC group checks are in the DMG2.

Some groups like to do the exxxtreme planning thing; maybe your group is one of them.

Here are a couple of my rules of thumb for running skill challenges (which I love, btw):

1. Either explicitly explain the minigame or keep it all rp. DO NOT split the difference. Good "explicitly explained" SCs would be things where you want the mechanics to influence play, e.g. you want the pcs to know that opening the fancy locks on the chest requires a total of 6 Thievery successes so that they can choose their in-combat actions wisely. Good 'all rp' SCs are those where you want to maintain immersion, which is usually about 85% of them IMHO.

2. Never have a list of skills that apply. Instead, have a list of how you expect your pcs will try to apply their skills. I prefer to have a list of probable pc tactics with applicable skill DCs but am pretty much always open to reasonable ideas on how to apply other skills or powers.

3. Try to think of your skill challenge, if it requires more than 6 successes, as more than a single scene. Add complications in the middle somewhere.

4. I'm opposed to 4e's general advice on failing a skill challenge, which boils down to "it shouldn't hurt too much." I'm fine with a failed skill challenge resulting in serious trouble for a party or even death/tpk if the challenge involves sufficiently dangerous stuff (for instance, a hurricane is not a combat challenge but might well prove lethal). Then again, I prefer a high-lethality game. Furthermore, this isn't to say that every skill challenge should be potentially lethal- but if you earn the same xp as from a combat, there ought to be real and significant penalties for failure.

Here are two examples of skill challenges I have run or am running soon.

MY PLAYERS STAY OUT OF THE SECOND SPOILER BLOCK, PLEASE! YOU HAVEN'T DONE THAT ONE YET!

[sblock]The pcs should be able to hire a boat to take them out on White Lake for a couple of gold pieces, but the island itself is cloaked by a combination of illusions and weather magic (cloaking it in fog). In order to find it, the pcs must defeat this magic by completing a skill challenge.

RUNNING THE SKILL CHALLENGE

Finding the island is a level 11, complexity 3 skill challenge. To successfully complete it, the pcs must achieve 8 successes before 3 failures. Once the pcs get close (after they have achieved 5 successes), see Complications, below.

Since a combination of illusion and weather hide it, the pcs' possible approaches to finding the illusion include the following:

Search Grid: The lake is truly too large to divide and search without immense manpower, but the pcs can spend six hours to eliminate everything within a few miles of the Delphinate proper. Doing this doesn't require any skill checks or gain a success or failure for the party, but gives all further checks in the skill challenge a +2 bonus.

Pierce Illusions: A character that expresses the belief that illusions are involved may attempt to see through them with an Insight check (DC 27). Success means that the character earns a success; though they cannot see through the veils of mist, they can make out which ones are illusory. Failure ensnares the characters further in the misty magic; they gain a failure.

Countermagic or Follow the Flow: A character trained in Arcana may attempt to sense the presence and direction of flow of the magical energy that cloak the island (DC 19); doing this earns one success for the party, while failing earns the party a failure. Once the presence of the magic has been sensed, a trained character may attempt to countermand the cloaking spells here in order to eliminate them, but doing so is very difficult (DC 29). A character that makes this check earns two successes, while failing it gains only a single failure. A character that uses dispel magic against the fog earns an automatic success for the party.

True Navigation: The characters may attempt to simply use their Perception (DC 23) or knowledge of Nature (DC 19) to navigate. Using such a skill earns either a success or failure for the party. Alternatively, a character could make a History check (DC 19) to remember details on the locations of the lake's islands; the party can earn only one success this way (although they could conceivably earn multiple failures!).

Watch the Ghouls: During and after the attack of the sodden ghouls (see Complications), a pc could try to discern the direction of the island by watching their behavior using either Insight (DC 19) or Religion (DC 19). A daring character might also swim in pursuit, using Athletics (DC 20). The characters earn successes or failures for any of these instances.

Rituals: Using a divination or weather control ritual earns the pcs one to three successes, depending on the ritual, its level and how cleverly the party uses it.

Complications: As the pcs get closer to the island, they enter a more active layer of the island's defenses. After their 5th success, the party is ambushed by a trio of sodden ghoul wailers (OG 154; level 9 soldiers), who attack from the water, attempting to pull the boat's pilot into the water before dealing with the pcs themselves. The round after they attack, two more sodden ghoul wailers grab the boat from under the water and attempt to tow the vessel away. Each round until that the ghouls tow the boat, the pcs lose one success.

As soon as the pcs defeat the three sodden ghoul wailers above the water, the other two retreat into the depths unless any pcs are in the water, in which case they attempt to drag them under and slay them. If the pcs want to attack the two ghouls under the water, they must enter the water or hole the deck of the boat.

Each time the pcs achieve a 5th success, they are attacked by another group of ghouls unless they are still dealing with the first group. In practice, this means that they must continue to work on the skill challenge while fighting the ghouls, or they will end up fighting group after group of them without ever making headway.

Success: When the pcs achieve their 8th success, read the following:

In the mist ahead, a rocky island starts to resolve itself. A short pier, inexpertly constructed of wood, bobs above the waves, with three small rowing craft attached. You can see the suggestion of a steep upward slope, but the thick vapor in the air makes it impossible to tell more.

Failure: The pcs become hopelessly lost. It is full dark by the time they finally find shore, and it takes until almost 2 a.m. to return to the Delphinate. The pilot who took the pcs on this journey, if still alive, must be impressively compensated or he swears off the party thereafter.[/sblock]

[sblock] This is the pool of an earth weird named Groolool, a soothsayer of death and wealth. A creature with a passive Arcana or Nature of at least 23 will recognize it for what it is and allow a skill challenge to first, persuade the weird to manifest, and second, persuade it to prophesize.

If at any point the pcs accumulate 3 failures in the skill challenge, Groolool will sink into a deep sleep and cannot be woken for a year and a day.

Skill Challenge Part 1: First, getting the weird to manifest requires at least 4 successes with skill checks. Creatures that simply sit out this part of the skill challenge leave Groolool unimpressed and incur an automatic failure. Possible approaches include:

Arcana: Use arcane skills to persuade (DC 22) or force (DC 26) it to manifest. Creatures can only gain 2 successes using Arcana.

Athletics: Vigorously stirring the earth in the pool (DC 24) gets the weird's attention.

Diplomacy: Speaking to the pool in Primordial, a creature might persuade the weird to manifest (DC 21; +5 bonus if the speaker asks the weird to prophesize; only three successes possible).

Insight: With a DC 22 Insight check, a creature does not gain a success, but can remove a single failure by speaking soothingly to the pool. This can only happen once during the challenge.

Intimidate: Threatening to break the pool (DC 28) or spread its earth around outside the pool (DC 23) is an effective tactic, though the weird will not be friendly. Creatures can only get 2 successes with Intimidate.

Nature: Like Arcana, this skill can coax (DC 21) or force (DC 25) the weird forth.


Skill Challenge Part 2: The weird manifests as a naked woman made of earth, with a serpentine lower body. She does not even speak until the pcs gain 3 more successes on the skill challenge (7 total); at that point she will declare that “You have little time left.” She will answer very limited questions, giving only the following basic information as laconic replies to the right questions:

My name is Groolool. I am an earth weird- a prophet of death and wealth.

I was brought here to avoid my use as a cheat in the casino by its customers. I once dwelt in nearby mountains.

I want for nothing, but accept tribute in wealth or death and disaster.

Only after the pcs obtain another three successes (10 total) can they persuade her to prophesize. During the second part of the skill challenge, possible approaches include:

Offer Sacrifice: A sacrifice of a living creature of at least paragon level or of treasure worth at least 1,000 gp earns the pcs an automatic success. Only two successes can be earned this way.

Arcana: A creature trained in Arcana can demand compliance and prophecy, similar to using Nature. The DC is 21, but only one success can be gained with this skill in this part of the skill challenge.

Athletics: Vigorously stirring the earth in the pool (DC 24) helps the weird awaken enough to speak and prophesize.

Diplomacy: A creature can awaken the weird and persuade it to prophesize by speaking to it in Primordial and making a DC 18 Diplomacy check. Creatures can earn any number of successes this way.

Insight: A DC 16 Insight check in this part of the challenge allows a creature to realize that Groolool is simply very sleepy, and thus hard to get to speak. The creature also realizes that her deep topor can be alleviated by staring her in the eyes in an attempt to make “contact” with her. This will earn one success or eliminate a failure, but can only earn two successes and remove one failure altogether in this part of the challenge.

Intimidate: Continuing to threaten the pool (DC 28) or to remove the earth from it (DC 23) are still effective tactics, but only sufficient to gain one more success in this part of the challenge.

Nature: Using Nature to invoke the laws governing prophesy and demand that Groolool give her name (before she has spoken) and then offer up prophecy (after she has spoken) (each is a DC 16 check). Creatures can only gain one success with each of these tactics.

Success: If creatures earn a total of 10 successes, they earn the skill challenge's xp and the earth weird prognosticates for them, giving the following prophecy (speaking in Primordial):

“An island in the silver sea
Upon which the dead enlivened
Scurry and burrow in the body
Of the master to whom they're driven
A word to end the maddened mind
A word to break the perfect cog
Seeking lost to all to find
Swallowed in the Stygian bog
Ossified in sunless void
Unknown unseen unprayed profane
Until the lost tool is employed
Undead returned undead and bane
For ages lost the stars align
A cross around a darkened moon
To allow return malign
When time is right with offered boon
Dark zenith on the longest night
Conjunction winks and then is past
Wand directs the souls in flight
From maw to isle where at last
Where stone will stir neath sunless sky
And dead undead undead again
With lust that all that live will die
Vengeance found in spread of pain.”

Failure: If at any point the pcs accumulate 3 failures in the skill challenge, Groolool will sink into a deep sleep and cannot be woken for a year and a day.[/sblock]

 

[LostSoul]

I set the stage by explaining that they hear the ever present howl of ghouls, they see the occasional single or pack of same, they see tracks in the bone powder, etc. The table talk between players clearly indicated that they knew they had to be careful...

...and yet, it took them forever to make a Stealth check. They wanted to know the exact spacing of the houses, the layout of the streets, etc. I explained that, like D&D combat, Skill Challenges are an abstract; I do not have a map of the city.

That response from the players makes sense to me. It sounds like 1) they need more information about what their choices are, and 2) they are trying to make a smart choice. This is good.

Some thoughts:

1. Present the players with an interesting fictional situation.
2. Describe what the conflict is - what the PCs stand to gain or lose, what is opposing them. Conflict gives meaning to the choices the players make.
3. Describe what the PCs sense in the moment. Sketch a quick and dirty a map if it's complex. This allows the players to make informed decisions.
4. Describe the danger or opposition to the PCs in the moment. If it's hidden, let them know that something dangerous is hidden from sight. If not, let the players know the possible consequences - the opposition's goal. This pushes the PCs into action and forces a decision from the players.
5. Ask the players to describe the actions of their PCs in the moment. Do not let them use jargon, e.g. "I make a Stealth check." This is the choice the players are making, and this choice determines how the situation will resolve.
5a. If the players ask for clarifications or more information, give it to them. If something is hidden, tell them it is hidden.
6. Resolve the actions of the PCs. This is why the player's can't use jargon; you need something to resolve. It's important to resolve the actions, because that will tell you how the situation changes.
6a. Success means that the PCs accomplish two things: their action in the moment, and how they progress closer to their end goal.
6b. Failure can mean: the PCs were unsuccessful in their action in the moment, they move further away from their goal, and/or a complication has been introduced. These are not exclusive, nor is any one mandatory.
6c. Some actions require a check, some are automatic successes, some automatic failures, and others may require a check but do not add to the tally towards resolution of the situation (the Skill Challenge).
7. Describe how the situation has changed based on the resolution of the PC's action in the moment.
8 Repeat 3-7 until the situation has been resolved.
8a. This does not necessarily require the PCs to tally the required number of successes or three failures.
9. Award the PCs XP.

Notes:
* "In the moment" can have different meanings based on the scope and scale of the skill challenge. The moment being resolved can be anywhere from a heartbeat to a year. It's possible for the time scale to change within a single skill challenge.

* If the whole group is doing something, only call for one check and let the others aid. The one who makes the check should be the one whom success or failure hinges on. Remember that aiding is an action and needs to be described - it can change the situation as well!

* If the actions of the PCs lead to a resolution of the situation, end the skill challenge there. If there is no more reasonable opposition or the conflict has been resolved, it's over.

 

[Rune]

...After I set the stage, I ask “what do you do?”, and wait for the players to announce their actions. When one of my players states/asks something that seems to fall in with the listed skills, I call for a check. Problem is that my players usually just sit there not knowing what to do, especially if they think that they have no skills that apply (e.g. only one of the PCs is trained in stealth). So, should I read fluff entries of the various skills out loud first and let the players jump on that? Seems like if I do that, I might as well just list the skills that apply and let the rolls fall, thereby cheapening the whole thing. But if I don’t prod them, I get the blank-stare-grindfest. Also, how do I deal with the whole max check mechanic (i.e. Perception: max 3 successes). Definitely the old Kobiashi Maru…

...As soon as it became apparent that Stealth checks were important, the bulk of my players shut down because their stealthiness is minimal at best.

I think I can help you out. First, stop thinking of them as "Skill Challenges." Tell you're players that they aren't "Skill Challenges." They're just "Challenges."

When you design them you might make a few notes about what skills would be particularly useful, but it looks like doing that is really getting in your way. So don't.

Set up the situation and make ABSOLUTELY NO notes about the solution. None whatsoever.

If the players are picking up from you that their is a specific way they should be doing things--and it's not a way they feel confident in succeeding, of course they're going to hesitate.

If are even thinking that they have to find the answer on their skill lists, something has gone terribly wrong.

Just set up the situation. If they ask if there's some specific feature, say "Yes." (This is important. If they're asking, it means they have an idea. You want them to have ideas, so don't shut them down!)

Believe me, once the players get the hang of not relying on their skill lists to solve all their problems, they'll feel a lot more satisfied (and, for that matter, challenged--in a good way) with your "Challenges."

 

[Syntallah]

Very interesting view, Rune. How do you adjudicate failure/success?

In my current example, the Party has to make 8 successful skill checks with a maximum on certain skills used (e.g. only three of those successes can be Perception checks). How do you translate that into the on the fly method you described?

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

After I set the stage, I ask “what do you do?”, and wait for the players to announce their actions. When one of my players states/asks something that seems to fall in with the listed skills, I call for a check. Problem is that my players usually just sit there not knowing what to do, especially if they think that they have no skills that apply (e.g. only one of the PCs is trained in stealth). So, should I read fluff entries of the various skills out loud first and let the players jump on that? Seems like if I do that, I might as well just list the skills that apply and let the rolls fall, thereby cheapening the whole thing. But if I don’t prod them, I get the blank-stare-grindfest. Also, how do I deal with the whole max check mechanic (i.e. Perception: max 3 successes). Definitely the old Kobiashi Maru…

This is one of the reasons I don't run many SCs. I've never been able to conquer the logistical problems, such as those you describe, well enough to make a SC feel really satisfying. So these days I run these situations the old school way.

For example if the PCs want to sneak thru a ghoul city, I'll say "Anyone who wants to take point, be ready to roll Stealth. Anyone who doesn't want to roll Stealth can stay 50 feet (10 squares) behind the point PC/s." (If the buildings are relatively intact and close together, reducing visibility, I'll make it 25 feet instead.) It's simple, it's intuitive to everyone, and it's fast.

That said, I did have one DM who made SCs alright. His strategy was to come right out and tell us when we were in a skill challenge, if it wasn't clear, and then to let us make a case for any skill we wanted to use. I don't think he even had notes about which skills he expected us to use, because he let us use pretty much any skill for any SC. In his campaign I was playing a mul with a phenomenal Endurance bonus, so that's what I used.

DM: Bob the fighter, the first of you to step into the long passage, is scorched by a flame jet that erupts from a cleverly hidden nozzle in the wall's engravings. It appears that the whole passage is trapped with flame jets! How do you proceed?

Bob the Fighter: I use athletics to run thru the traps as fast as I can!

Jill the Rogue: I use acrobatics to tumble safely past the traps!

Me: I, uh...use Endurance to, ehm...endure the flames?

DM: Sounds good; just like walking on hot coals!

As I recall, my mul was not the most injured by those traps, despite my incredibly shallow justification for using Endurance. This is the best kind of SC I've seen because, while it does suffer from the ever-present "pick your best skill and spam it" syndrome, it allowed me reign to problem solve how I chose, and didn't require the DM to explain any meta-gamey restrictions like "can only use this skill three times."

It's not a SC style to be taken seriously, but what do ya want from D&D after all?

 

[Rune]

Very interesting view, Rune. How do you adjudicate failure/success?

In my current example, the Party has to make 8 successful skill checks with a maximum on certain skills used (e.g. only three of those successes can be Perception checks). How do you translate that into the on the fly method you described?

I don't usually adhere to the X Successes before 3 Failures model, as it feels arbitrarily artificial in play. Essentially, I eyeball the situation and recognize success or failure when it happens.

Now I don't mean that skills are off-limits. Skill checks and ability checks will certainly come up when they are warranted. Certainly, some players will prefer to just look at their skill list and pick something appropriate (though, in general, the "look-at-your-character-sheet-for-the-solution-style of play is one I've been trying to move away from for a while, now). The point is, I want the players to come up with their own solutions.

And, oh yeah, DMG, page 42.

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=17152]Syntallah[/MENTION]
Ok I just read the Encounter H: Ghoul Country from Lord of the White Field (which I believe is the skill challenge you referred to) and no wonder you had trouble with it! It's terribly designed! (which is on par for the course with most of the WotC skill challenges I've read)

First off, the premise of the entire group slinking thru the ghoul-infested ruins is better suited to a group skill check and NOT a skill challenge. And just because you use the group skill check format doesn't mean that everyone *must* use stealth (though most should).

Second, there is no story development or complications that arise during Ghoul Country - IOW it's boring as written. No doubt a DM could add good flavor, but they wouldn't have the skill challenge to thank for that.

Third and lastly, the failure condition is an easy-moderate combat and the success condition is...no combat? While I would only rarely make combat the result of a failed skill challenge, the combat should at the very least be hard (if not lethal). And the success condition should probably lead to a discovery or some improvement in the PCs' plight, not simply crossing the village ruins safely.

Anyhow, if I were to run this adventure, I would replace this skill challenge with a group skill check, or else rewrite it from the ground up. IMO a skill challenge should almost never dictate possible player actions (i.e. No "Streetwise DC 23, maximum of 3 checks"). My two coppers.

 

[delericho]

I feel your pain. I really like the concept of Skill Challenges, but have found the practice to fall flat, pretty much without fail. The only solution I've come up with is to use the toolkit for inspiration, but pretty much bin the rules as written.

Now, I do not announce "you are entering a Skill Challenge". I set the stage, prompt them to tell me what their characters are doing, and turn that into a skill roll. Problem is, they just don't get it. They all sit around the table staring blankly

Okay, I'm going to go against the grain in this thread a bit. I say: tell them up front some things that will work. Can they sneak through? Tell them! Can they perform a ritual to turn them invisible to the undead? Tell them! Are the sewers passable? The rooftops? Tell them!

But don't tell them the solution, and don't tell them one solution. Provide them with options, give them some idea of the pros and cons, and let them decide what to do.

And that should eliminate those blank looks.

or once they know a particular skill works, they will all roll that same skill over and over and over.

Okay, what you do here is change the parameters of the challenge. Yeah, Stealth will work... twice. After that, your cover is blown and you have to do something else.

Or add complications and choices. If they use Athletics, then successes count triple because they're moving really fast... but each check counts as an automatic failure as well. Or perhaps they can use Religion to discover a way to bypass an entire section of the city, but only if they're looking. Or something.

Basically, make it clear that the original solution no longer works, so they can't just spam one ability.

Okay, now I'm going to look at your specific example in some detail, to give a closer view of what I mean...

I am currently running Lord of the White Field, and the Party just made it into Hampstead last night. Since fighting 6000 ghouls is bad, they have to make their way through the city as stealthy as possible.

Okay, right at the outset I don't like this challenge. Specifically, IMO the challenge should be "make it through the city", not "sneak through the city".

If the PC's are like Han Solo, and prefer a straight fight to all this sneaking around, then that's their prerogative, even if it means a TPK. Hell, even if it means an inescapable TPK (though you should probably hint very firmly that that's the case!).

If the PCs decide they want to bypass the city entirely with some sort of teleport effect, and they can figure out a way to make it happen, that should be fine. If they want to disguise themselves as ghouls and saunter through, that should be an option. Hell, if they decide to just make a run for it, trading speed for stealth, that's their call.

But declaring that they must sneak through? That's railroading, and it's denying the players the right to make interesting choices for their PCs.

Now, the first thing I'd do with this Challenge is not treat it as an encounter - I would use something like this as the framework for an entire session. So, there are going to be several smaller bits to this one, including sub-combats and such. In particular, you'll want to grab yourself a few likely streetmaps, to act as settings for those battles.

To that end, I would also set a pretty high number of successes for the Challenge - something like 15 successes to get through. And here's my first complication: no, the PCs can't take an Extended Rest partway through, and if they turn back then they have to count back to 0 successes before they get free! (Oh, in case you're wondering - there's no need to count failures here.)

Now, try to think how the PCs might go about solving the puzzle, and think of as many possible solutions as you can. Do they just sneak through? Do they make a run for it? Do they use the sewers or rooftops to bypass the danger? At the moment, don't think about skills to use for each of these, just get a handle on what you think they might try.

Now, what I'm going to do is break the Challenge up into phases. Each phase will represent an hour of travel, and will represent "once round the table, plus one group check". Thus, in each phase, each member of the party will be able to declare one thing his character is doing to help progress, and make a suitable skill roll for one success. Additionally, at the end of the phase, everyone in the group will need to make a roll depending on the basic nature of their travel. Success here will give the group a success; failure will result in limited discovery.

And so, now I start getting into the specific skills to use. I don't really have time to outline every possibility, so assuming sneaking, for the individual efforts, here are a few options:

Stealth (hard DC): The obvious one. The Rogue acts as a scout, enabling the group to travel that much faster by choosing less dangerous routes.

Religion (hard DC): The Cleric detects fluxes in the necrotic energies of the place, avoiding nests of ghouls.

Streetwise (hard DC): A section of the sewers is open here, and appears passable...

and so on.

For the group check, there are several options, depending on what they do:

If they try to sneak through, make a Stealth group check (Easy or Average DC). Group success counts as 1 success; group failure results in an encounter.

If they try to disguise themselves as ghouls, make an appropriate check (Streetwise? Perform? Disguise? Pick something suitable. Anyway, Easy or Average DC). Group success counts as 1 success; group failure results in an encounter.

If they decide to just make a run for it, have everyone make Athletics checks (Average DC). Each individual who succeeds contributes one success to the total, but moving in this manner automatically results in an encounter.

Encounters

When the group fails a group check (or otherwise attracts notice), they are discovered by some ghouls, and will face an encounter. You'll want to put together some quick encounters here for use: the first one should be at level -2, then level -1, then level-appropriate, level+1, and so on. For each encounter, use one of your pre-chosen battlemats. I'm sure you get the idea!

Changing the Situation

Ideally, the situation should change as time passes. Maybe once the PCs accumulate 5 successes the sewer system becomes derelict and unusable. Perhaps after 8 successes they discover that there are two distinct factions of ghouls, allowing them to set one on another. Or whatever. The idea here should be that the situation is fluid, and changes in a sensible manner.

And again, when new options become available, tell the players. That way they get to choose to take a new option, or to just stick with what works. Either way, it's an interesting choice, and that's good.

And that's more or less it.

I set the stage by explaining that they hear the ever present howl of ghouls, they see the occasional single or pack of same, they see tracks in the bone powder, etc. The table talk between players clearly indicated that they knew they had to be careful...

Yep, that sounds really good.

They wanted to know the exact spacing of the houses, the layout of the streets, etc. I explained that, like D&D combat, Skill Challenges are an abstract; I do not have a map of the city.

But that's not. It's entirely reasonable not to have a map. However, it's not really reasonable to expect the players to make sensible decisions without information their PCs should reasonably have. (And, indeed, getting more information can and should be part of the Challenge!)

So, when they ask questions like that, think of what response best fits with the tone you're going for. Do you want to emphasise that it's a deadly hive, packed with ghouls? Then the streets should be narrow, and clogged with wagons, boxes and barrels. Do you want this to be a grand old city, tragically fallen to ruin? Then it's wide streets, magestically paved, and clean despite the necrotic infestation.

There's no "right" answer, but you do need to give an answer, so the players can make the appropriate choices.

Also, I suspect that TeqSun is correct, my players aren't thrilled with non-combat scenarios. After working 40 work weeks, and dealing with famliy/life/etc all week, they do not like to think on Friday nights.

Ultimately, if your players just don't like non-combat encounters, then don't use them. It really is that simple. In a previous group, I found they were just useless at investigation scenarios; once I realised that, "investigations" became almost trivially easy for them, rather than bog down the game.

However, in a situation like this, I do always come back to my "interesting decisions" guideline. In combat, there are all manner of decisions to make, and they're inevitably rendered interesting by the life-or-death nature of the situation. But in a non-combat situation, it's important to provide the interest yourself.

So, give your players interesting decisions to make. Make sure they represent a genuine choice (with several obvious answers, but no answer that's obviously "right" or "wrong"), with genuine context (so the players have some basis for making the decision), and with genuine consequences (so that their choices matter). Provide that, see if it improves the situation. And if not, then just drop Skill Challenges as something that's not working for you.

I've gone on too long. I hope this was at least somewhat helpful.

 

[Radiating Gnome]

I've never been a big fan of always hiding the structure of a skill challenge from the PCs. I think, like a ton of other elements, that depends upon the situation, the scene, the group of PCs, and what the DM wants to get out of the scene.

I suspect that you may feel that you're bound to run the skill challenge as written, or close to as it's written, but I'd encourage you to feel free to toss the skill challenge out and either replace it with something you think will work better for your group.

You could also run with the group skill check idea, or do something else fast just to get past that scene and on to the next bit you're more comfortable with.

Another thought: you described your players asking for details about the town -- you might want to try making the details up. When they ask about how much space there is between buildings, come up with an answer. Here's the key: whatever answer you come up with is the right answer, even if it ends up being different from something printed in the adventure.

Keep a couple of things in mind: Know what the purpose of the encounter is in the adventure -- why is there a scene where the PCs sneak past an army of ghouls in the first place? Having that in mind will help you figure out what you want to do in the scene.

Also: You're the one driving, not the adventure. If a skill challenge or any other scene is grinding and not working, flush and move on. Your players won't mind if you just narrate your way out of a scene that isn't working and you move on to something better.

-rg

 

[Wednesday Boy]

...once they know a particular skill works, they will all roll that same skill over and over and over. There is little to no thought process in it.

I've seen this happen most often when the situation that the players are in doesn't change between skill checks. For instance during an infiltration through a city skill challenge the GM lays the scene, the first player says they're sneaking between the buildings, and the GM has them roll stealth. The GM describes the PCs sneaking along then goes onto player two's turn without changing the situation based on player one's roll, so player two will try to sneak too.

If the GM changes the dynamic of the skill challenge or gives the players something to react to, I think using different skills is promoted. For example success on player one's stealth might result in the party sneaking behind a contingent of guards who are talking amongst themselves while failure on player one's stealth might lead the party to a dead end alley with the sound of the guards' voices coming their way.

I'm opposed to 4e's general advice on failing a skill challenge, which boils down to "it shouldn't hurt too much."

Not to say you're wrong but what I took away from 4E's general advice on failing skill challenges was that failure should complicate the PCs' situation but shouldn't stymie the plot. Failure can hurt a lot but shouldn't grind the story to a halt.

On a side note, I think the players have a responsibility (that sounds way too strict but I can't think of a better way to say it) to roleplay their characters' natural inclinations instead of playing off of their character sheet--even if that means failing on a skill check. If the cleric is about to be spotted by some guards they should be okay with failing their stealth check instead of trying to finagle some use of Religion because it's better than Stealth on their character sheet.