Sudden Metamagic balanced?

[Crothian]

It's up to the DM to make sure that if the BBEG does go down easily that the story continues in some way. If Vader goes down that easily, there would be a different way to tell the story.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I agree with jgsugden. It is fundamentally no different than powergamers that hyperspecialize. While it may be perfectly 'fair', it can be a royal pain in the rear for the DM who is simply trying to make sure everyone has fun.

It can also be a balance issue. If the DM does not enforce typical schedule of 2-5 combats per day, some abilities become disproportionately potent. I am playing in a campaign where we do a lot of traveling and investigation; we are finding that magic items with once per week abilities are almost always available for the fight.

 

[jgsugden]

Do you have an example that isnt, 'insurmountable odds even with anything remotely similar to the discusssion'?

If I could figure out what the heck this sentence means, I'd try to provide an example of ... well ... of whatever doesn't fall in that category.

 

[Saeviomagy]

These feats allow a character to toss in a metamagic effect 1/day without increasing the caster level. During that 1 casting, the spell is more powerful than it should be. This results in the character being able to do things that were not intended to be in the hands of a character yet. For instance, a suddenly maximized fireball cast by a 5th level caster (30 points of damage) will have a dramatic effect on that one battle ... an effect far stronger than was intended to be in the hands of characters of that level.

Garbage. In the case of maximise, it's an effect that might have happened anyway. In the case of empower, it's a relatively small difference (only 50% extra damage). In the case of the others, it's no difference between what's attainable and what's not.

On the other hand, during the rest of the encounters that the PC faces, s/he will be at a disadvantage because s/he will effectively have 1 less feat than they are supposed to possess.

Because that feat was a resource. The use of the feat no doubt prevented the expenditure of other resources of the party.

The end result? The DM has trouble balancing combats. The DM has to plan around that suddenly maximized fireball. A sudden maximized fireball can wipe out an entire encounter that was meant to be a challenge.

If a maximised fireball turns a challenge into a nothing, then it was a crap encounter in the first place, and the DM is an idiot. It means that a normal fireball could have done precisely the same thing, and that two fireballs would most certainly have polished off the fight.

If the DM anticipates the use of the fireball and makes the enemies tougher, he may end up with a TPK if the caster unexpectedly uses/wastes the suddenly empowered feat on something else earlier and doesn't have it when the DM thought that they would have it.

If the DM doesn't plan around the presence of the feat, his big encounters can be pretty boring. Few things ruin a good session as much as a BBEG that dies too easily.

Except for the fact that a BBEG who dies to a maximised fireball was a wuss anyway. Giving him more hitpoints is a really lame solution.

Randomness in the game keeps it interesting. Too much randomness in the game makes it chaotic and wild. That results in more encounters that are too easy or too hard. Feats like this one are a big source of randomness in role playing.

Is the feat balanced? Perhaps. But I do not think it is good for the game. Things that grant too much power for a given character level, even in a limited situation, are bad for the game.

Of course they are - too much has an inherent negative connotation. If something is "too much", then it's bad. Too much water is bad for you. Too much food is bad for you. Too much dieting is bad for you.

The problem is defining 'too much'. Personally I think that a minor bit of messing about with probability isn't 'too much'.

Things that are focused into narrow pidgeon holes instead of being spread out over many encounters are also bad.

So spell slots are bad. Hitpoints get used up too - does that mean that they're bad? Is toughness a feat that is inherently bad for the game? What about rage? What about...

I think you get the point.

These feats are bad for both of these reasons.

If that's the best you can come up with, then I don't think you've really shown much.

As for disproportionalities in encounter schedules - that's already a problem inherent in the spellcasting system. Wizards are ludicrously potent if they're always at full charge. Campaigns with that level of activity basically preclude the involvement of any of the fighting classes, as they have almost nothing to contribute.

 

[James McMurray]

As for disproportionalities in encounter schedules - that's already a problem inherent in the spellcasting system. Wizards are ludicrously potent if they're always at full charge. Campaigns with that level of activity basically preclude the involvement of any of the fighting classes, as they have almost nothing to contribute.

Perhaps you haven't seen a truly power-gamed fighter? They can dish out just as much damage, but do it all day long.

As for the sudden metamagic feats, my group has almost completely dropped the MHB from the game. One of our DMs (the one that owns it) still allows it in his games, but much of the stuff has been removed or altered due to balance issues.

I think the instant metamagic feats aren't broken, but they're definitely powerful, and they do make things harder on the DM.

You say that a maximum damage fireball is something that ould hae happened anyway. Hmmm, at 5th level there is a 1:7,776 chance of that happening. Even a fireball of all 5s and 6s has only a 1:243 chance of happening. At tenth level the odds change to 1:60,466,176 and 1:59,049 respectively. At 20th level, with Horrid Wilting, the odds jump to 1:3,656,158,440,062,976 and 1:34,86,784,401.

The odds are so incredibly low that the DM can discount that possibility. If he wants the BBEG's mooks to survive a 5th level fireball, but not survive two, he just gives them 23-27 hit points and relies on probability to do his work for him.

In the case of the others, it's no difference between what's attainable and what's not.

So there's no difference between a silent fireball and a normal one when the enemy cleric is casting Silence at you?

Granted, the ones that don't increase damage are nowhere near as difficult to account for, and can even be good as they give the DM a chance to let a player showcase an ability. They are still far from "no different than what coul's attainable".

 

[Scion]

If I could figure out what the heck this sentence means, I'd try to provide an example of ... well ... of whatever doesn't fall in that category.

You said:

What if the Rebels took out the Death Star in Star Wars by shooting it as they came around the moon? Boring!

What if Frodo destroyed the One Ring by hitting it with a hammer in Bag End? Boring!.

The first example was a huge, nearly insurmountable task that the heros were able to outmanuever, invade, and attack.. useing a lot of special techniques..

in the instance of the one in a million shot, I think that is exactly the same as these feats that are useable once per day.

however, you said, 'shooting it as they came around the moon'. That is just an impossibility. Effectively the same in d&d as saing, 'ok, my third level fireball spell will be maximised.. I'll shoot it at the castle over there, destroy it, kill everyone inside and then go over to loot it' See the power level difference in the two actions?

The second was an artifact that could only be destroyed in a very specific manor. No matter even if you maximise your 9th level spells and shoot them at an artifact very few will do anything useful.

Hence my comment about if you have any examples that arent far outside of the realm of possibility. Hitting the BBEG and killing them in one hit is pretty excessive as well, if that happens the dm planned on the monster having no real chance against the party anyway.

anyway, not a big deal. I just thought your examples were a little over the top. Which I dont mind I just wondered if you had any problems that could actually happen in a real game.

 

[Crothian]

Here's why I don't think it's unbalanced, an example from my game.

There's an artifact called the well of souls. It allows souls to pass from our world to a place they get judged. An evil Lich had magically blocked the welll and was slowly building an army of creatures using the souls.

One party memember has a major circlet of blasting. 1/day it does a maximized searing light which does 60 damage to any undea, in my example the Lich. They get to the Lich, the fighters run up and attack it injuring it, and then she blasts it to oblivion.

My BBEG was destroyed, but that wasn't the end of everything. The story revolves around the PCs and life goes on after the BBEG is dead. They didn't feel cheated by it being easy, they felt relieved that it was easier then they planned.

 

[Scion]

One party memember has a major circlet of blasting. 1/day it does a maximized searing light which does 60 damage to any undea, in my example the Lich. They get to the Lich, the fighters run up and attack it injuring it, and then she blasts it to oblivion.

sorry for the hijack ;/ But did this actually 'kill' the lich? I mean, if it is a real lich it'll just be growing back somewhere and be back shortly. I dont know if this is a specific, special example. But there is nothing special about that spell to kill the lich forever.

 

[Crothian]

sorry for the hijack ;/ But did this actually 'kill' the lich? I mean, if it is a real lich it'll just be growing back somewhere and be back shortly. I dont know if this is a specific, special example. But there is nothing special about that spell to kill the lich forever.

It stoped the Lich and it's plans and allowed them to destroy it permently later. The point being that this one encounter the BBEG was taken out and defeated with ease.

 

[trentonjoe]

Don't plan around what the players can do. Let them have their fun, allow them to enjoy their powers. If the players use their abilities and win a fight easier then they should, they deserve it.

I agree with this statement.

I also think sudden maximze isn't a big deal.