D&D 5E Suggestion: Broken?

[tglassy]

I'm running a game. The party goes out on to a lake that apparently had something that was influencing people to sacrifice to it. It's an Aboleth, because Aboleth's. I wasn't expecting them to do this, so I was like "Cool, I get to play an Aboleth". Anyway, it tries talking to them telepathically, asking for its usual offerings, and they talk back, initiating conversation. It begins offering all their heart's desires. One of the characters decides to piss it off. It was a hysterical moment.

The Aboleth Attacks. That character, the one who wanted to piss it off, on his first turn, still responding telepathically to it, says "I cast Suggestion. I tell it to f*** off." It rolls a 6...

...

...

It's not immune to being Charmed. It doesn't speak common, but while the Spell has a verbal component, it just says you "Suggest" a course of action, it doesn't say the suggestion itself has to be verbal, and he was in a telepathic conversation with it. And the Aboleth is not immune to being charmed.

So...it eff's off? It just leaves? An Aboleth? A CR 10 creature just leaves due to a 2nd lvl spell because of a low roll? I'm just...I'm flabbergasted.

Anyone else had that experience?

 

[TheAlkaizer]

I mean, I take for granted that your players are of adequate level. So instead of just seeing it as a level 2 spell, see it as a spell casted by a level 9 or 10 spellcaster.

Also keep in mind that the Aboleth is not defeated; your players simply bought time. It leaves; the spell can last for up to 8 hours but requires concentration. So whenever that caster would fall unconscious (or sleep), take damage or cast another concentration spell then the enchantment of Suggestion will dissipate. Now, the Aboleth simply comes back to influences the people and your heroes haven't really fixed the problem?

 

[Ovinomancer]

I'm running a game. The party goes out on to a lake that apparently had something that was influencing people to sacrifice to it. It's an Aboleth, because Aboleth's. I wasn't expecting them to do this, so I was like "Cool, I get to play an Aboleth". Anyway, it tries talking to them telepathically, asking for its usual offerings, and they talk back, initiating conversation. It begins offering all their heart's desires. One of the characters decides to piss it off. It was a hysterical moment.

The Aboleth Attacks. That character, the one who wanted to piss it off, on his first turn, still responding telepathically to it, says "I cast Suggestion. I tell it to f*** off." It rolls a 6...

...

...

It's not immune to being Charmed. It doesn't speak common, but while the Spell has a verbal component, it just says you "Suggest" a course of action, it doesn't say the suggestion itself has to be verbal, and he was in a telepathic conversation with it. And the Aboleth is not immune to being charmed.

So...it eff's off? It just leaves? An Aboleth? A CR 10 creature just leaves due to a 2nd lvl spell because of a low roll? I'm just...I'm flabbergasted.

Anyone else had that experience?

Not sure I see the problem. The aboleth indeed leaves the PCs alone (the meaning of F off), but isn't required to leave the area or refrain from other actions. Further, the PC must maintain concentration to keep the effect in place, and it will end in 8 hours in any event. At that point, you have a pissed off aboleth and you haven't solved any problems other than gotten 8 hours of concentration.

So, yep, the PC's got a good deal; a one time jump that means that they've earned an enemy for life and no XP (the problem wasn't solved nor was the monster defeated, just delayed).

 

[Wishbone]

Not sure I see the problem. The aboleth indeed leaves the PCs alone (the meaning of F off), but isn't required to leave the area or refrain from other actions. Further, the PC must maintain concentration to keep the effect in place, and it will end in 8 hours in any event. At that point, you have a pissed off aboleth and you haven't solved any problems other than gotten 8 hours of concentration.

So, yep, the PC's got a good deal; a one time jump that means that they've earned an enemy for life and no XP (the problem wasn't solved nor was the monster defeated, just delayed).

Yup, the aboleth's memory is pretty long and I imagine they hold grudges for a while. It seems like there's a pretty good reason for the aboleth to send chuuls or other minions after your players for disrespecting it so blatantly in its feeding ground.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Aboleths are very sneak-some. This one might not let the PC's know it's holding a grudge when the suggestion wears off. I might, since it now knows the PC's greatest desires, arrange to have information regarding one of those desires being near a connected waterway, perhaps sunken or on a small islet. Of course, this information will come from a source that's not connected to the Aboleth, as it's used it's abilities to manage a few cutouts and place the rumor in the PC's ears from a very different source. Should be child's play for an Aboleth to do this, and, of course, it will possibly wait a bit to let any suspicion die down -- besides, it might take a little bit to arrange to rumor. If the PCs don't take the bait, that's fine, the backup plan is to plant the rumor that another group is now seeking the treasure and will surely secure it shortly, and, perhaps, this other group is one opposed to the PC's plans. That way, if they kill each other, great, the Aboleth is happy. If they don't, well, the trap is still well baited.

Or, since Aboleths are good at manipulation and playing with people's greatest desires, just have the Aboleth work with a local to commit a horrible crime and then pin it on the PCs. Say, get a farmer to commit murder while also wounding themselves so they look like a survivor and then tell the story of how the caster PC did it, gruesomely and with great detail, including some of the secrets the Aboleth pried from the caster's brain through telepathy to help sell the story. This really depends on your table's comfort levels. It would play fine at mine -- horror is definitely on the table for my group.

 

[Todd Roybark]

Aboleth's are fairly weak sauce. What makes them frightening is this:
Probing Telepathy. If a creature communicates telepathically with the aboleth, the aboleth learns the creature's greatest desires ifthe aboleth can see the creature.

That aboleth now has a psychological profile on the PC. I'm sure you as the DM won't use this at some point down the road.

 

[Flamestrike]

It's not immune to being Charmed. It doesn't speak common, but while the Spell has a verbal component, it just says you "Suggest" a course of action, it doesn't say the suggestion itself has to be verbal, and he was in a telepathic conversation with it.

Firstly the Aboleth and only the Aboleth, can communicate telepathically. The PC (unless he has some special ability to do so), can not.

Telepathy

Telepathy is a magical ability that allows a monster to communicate mentally with another creature within a specified range. The contacted creature doesn't need to share a language with the monster to communicate in this way with it, but it must be able to understand at least one language. A creature without telepathy can receive and respond to telepathic messages but can't initiate or terminate a telepathic conversation.

The PC is limited to receiving and responding to telepathic messages; unless 'f**k off' was a direct response to a telepathic message sent by the Aboleth, he cant communicate it to the Aboleth at all.

Additionally the Suggestion spell states:

''You suggest a course of activity (limited to a sentence or two) and magically influence a creature you can see within range that can hear and understand you. ''

So all the following need to be true:

1) Can the PC see the Aboleth?
2) Is the Aboleth within 30' (range of the spell)?
3) Can the Aboleth hear the PC?
4) If the above 3 conditions are all met, can it understand the PC?

I presume the Aboleth was within 30' of the PC, and the PC could see the Aboleth (it wasnt lurking at the bottom of its lake). Seeing as the Aboleth knows the PCs desires (and in order to do so, it must also be able to see the PC) so, I'll assume those two conditions were met.

The next question is 'can the Aboleth hear and understand' the PC?

At no stage does the Aboleth hear the PC. Hearing is a specific sense using the ears. If the PC understood Deep Speech (and could speak it) the spell would work. In this case, they dont know Deep Speech (and the Aboleth doesnt understand any other language from the PC) so it officially doesnt work.

Before you say 'that sounds crazy', a PC communicating a Suggestion spell with Drow sign language (to a target that can understand that language) also could not use that Drow sign language for that Suggestion spell. The target is not hearing the Suggestion (even though they understand it just fine).

Nothing in the telepathy ability states it 'counts as' hearing either, unlike Blindsight and vision, which specifically overrides seeing without eyes.

You could rule Telepathy 'counts as' hearing. But as far as the Rules are concerned, the spell should not have worked.

 

[MarkB]

Sure, it should work - the Aboleth will leave and not personally pursue the party for 8 hours. But that still leaves it a lot of options.

First, if the lake is its lair, it can use a Lair Action to suck them into the water, at which point they'll be exposed to it's mucus cloud and may find themselves unable to leave the water. It can't go to them, but it can bring them to it.

Second, it can manifest an illusion of itself anywhere within a mile (for instance, right where the PCs are celebrating their easy victory) and immediately Enslave up to 3 of them, which the rest of them won't realise is happening because it's done telepathically.

Third, it can communicate with anyone anywhere on the same plane that it has already Enslaved, which it can have been doing at a rate of up to 3 per day since it arrived, and command them to dedicate all their resources to the destruction of the party.

 

[Baldurs_Underdark]

I think DMs just gotta accept that every now and then the PCs pull off something ridiculous that ends a fight in round 1.

If you are able to embrace such moments and weave it into the story as an important moment, then it will be memorable and you'll be talking about it years from now.

Such a victorious moment shouldn't necessarily come back to the players. Perhaps this aboleth will retreat after being told to F-off, and just sulk in its watery lair? Let some of the Aboleth's minions encounter the players, and let the players know that the Aboleth has dismissed them all, because what's the point?

Remember that you are writing a story together, and the players are the main characters and the heroes: Suggestion is not "broken", it is merely a strong spell that can change the storyline that you are creating together with your players.

Personally, I hate it when you come up with something smart as a player, and the DM is vengeful and makes it feel like it was a mistake (i.e. you tell the aboleth to f-off, and now you are the aboleth's #1 enemy - really great way to make a victory feel like a loss.).

 

[Flamestrike]

It shouldn't work.

Even if the PC had the means to telepathically communicate (bearing in mind only the Aboleth has telepathy and can stop listening at any time shutting the PC out from responding) the Aboleth needs to hear and understand the PC.

Hear being the operative word.

You don't 'hear' telepathy any more thsn you hear sign language, even if you understand what is being communicated in both forms of communication.