Lizard Lips
First Post
We had a rule dispute come up during out last game. Can you use the spell Suggestion with the instruction "Kill your allies."?
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Suggestion : Kill your ally.
- Thread starter Lizard Lips
- Start date
You can TRY. However, here's the lines that will usually bedevil you:
"...The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the activity sound reasonable. Asking the creature to do some obviously harmful act automatically negates the effect of the spell..."
Attacking and killing one's allies is rarely "reasonble," and it is usually construed as "harmful." Thus...wouldn't work.
However, if you know your foes you might be able to take advantage of existing bad blood. Evil critters rarely get along. And while just plain "not getting along" isn't a call to battle, if you know the troll and the salamander noble HATE each other, you could give the troll a suggestion like, "The salamander will kill you as soon as we're dead; kill him first!" That seems more reasonable given the troll's perspective, and if the salamander's going to attack him, then attacking it first certainly isn't harmful.
As a GM, I'd be more inclined to let a cleverly worded Suggestion that takes advantage of existing attitudes push the limits of the rules...especially against relatively stupid creatures.
"...The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the activity sound reasonable. Asking the creature to do some obviously harmful act automatically negates the effect of the spell..."
Attacking and killing one's allies is rarely "reasonble," and it is usually construed as "harmful." Thus...wouldn't work.
However, if you know your foes you might be able to take advantage of existing bad blood. Evil critters rarely get along. And while just plain "not getting along" isn't a call to battle, if you know the troll and the salamander noble HATE each other, you could give the troll a suggestion like, "The salamander will kill you as soon as we're dead; kill him first!" That seems more reasonable given the troll's perspective, and if the salamander's going to attack him, then attacking it first certainly isn't harmful.
As a GM, I'd be more inclined to let a cleverly worded Suggestion that takes advantage of existing attitudes push the limits of the rules...especially against relatively stupid creatures.
By RAW, if you can get it to sound reasonable, technically you can. But if it's obviously harmful (to whom it isn't specified) the spell is negated.
I would say if you can get it to sound reasonable, yes, but the target gets a new save with a bonus on it to resist, as presumably it's not something that would be a normal activity for the target.
DM's call, though, as 'reasonable' and 'obviously harmful' are relative terms.
Edit: Nuts, got beaten to the post.
I would say if you can get it to sound reasonable, yes, but the target gets a new save with a bonus on it to resist, as presumably it's not something that would be a normal activity for the target.
DM's call, though, as 'reasonable' and 'obviously harmful' are relative terms.
Edit: Nuts, got beaten to the post.
Random Axe
Explorer
That's a good setup to make the suggestion sound "reasonable". Otherwise the target would be getting some major Save bonuses. And then probably after the first attack, those allies would probably cry out to appeal to the character's friendship, and would probably allow a new Will Save by the victim.Victim said:
I base my answer off two, make that three, conditions:
1. How friendly are the two allies? If they are brothers, fellow clan-members, etc., then I would say no. If they were both evil and either had no or a poor relationship, then I MIGHT (key word being might) allow it.
2. How stupid is the opponent. I belive that this is the more important of the two. If the creature is super intelligent, then my answer would be no.
3. Make your PC roleplay it. If they make a convincing wording, then it might affect your decision.
If you feel shaky about allowing a ceartin condition, then I would:
1. Simply say no.
2. Allow the enemy to roll another save, possibly with additional bonuses.
1. How friendly are the two allies? If they are brothers, fellow clan-members, etc., then I would say no. If they were both evil and either had no or a poor relationship, then I MIGHT (key word being might) allow it.
2. How stupid is the opponent. I belive that this is the more important of the two. If the creature is super intelligent, then my answer would be no.
3. Make your PC roleplay it. If they make a convincing wording, then it might affect your decision.
If you feel shaky about allowing a ceartin condition, then I would:
1. Simply say no.
2. Allow the enemy to roll another save, possibly with additional bonuses.
Last edited:
Dross
Explorer
Lizard Lips said:
If it was a player's PC that suggested this I often wonder what the players would do if an NPC caster was to do the same thing?
If it was the DM's NPC I wonder if he would allow the PC's to do this?
I would not allow a 2nd level spell to do something that typically requires a Dominate or similar to work unless there is a history of bad blood or a known character weakness.
Infiniti2000
First Post
That makes mass suggestion the life of the party, doesn't it?Dross said:
Thanee
First Post
We allow it, and the same works for NPC spells on PCs, of course.
Engaging in combat is not an obviously harmful act, IMHO, since it does not directly cause harm.
It's certainly a dangerous act, but not obviously harmful.
Jumping off a cliff is quite obviously harmful.
Something like... “Look, you are losing, anyways. Help us kill them and you can walk away free and unharmed.” should be reasonable enough in many situations. Not any less than the examples in the spell description, anyways.
It doesn't need to be so reasonable, that the target would consider to do it, just because someone offered the suggestion. It's still a mind-influencing effect, that turns a somewhat reasonable sounding suggestion into something the target will do.
Bye
Thanee
Engaging in combat is not an obviously harmful act, IMHO, since it does not directly cause harm.
It's certainly a dangerous act, but not obviously harmful.
Jumping off a cliff is quite obviously harmful.
Something like... “Look, you are losing, anyways. Help us kill them and you can walk away free and unharmed.” should be reasonable enough in many situations. Not any less than the examples in the spell description, anyways.
It doesn't need to be so reasonable, that the target would consider to do it, just because someone offered the suggestion. It's still a mind-influencing effect, that turns a somewhat reasonable sounding suggestion into something the target will do.
Bye
Thanee
Sejs
First Post
Lizard Lips said:
That'd be quite the trick to pull off. You'd have to make the suggestion sound reasonable, and 'kill your allies' frankly isn't. "You can't possibly defeat us, but surrender and we'll let you live" sounds reasonable. If their side is already losing heavily, a suggestion of "Change sides, help us defeat your friends and we'll let you go" can sound reasonable. But just .. kill your allies .. right out of the gate - not so much.
