[Summon], [Call] and [Binding]

[Cheiromancer]

Lest it get lost in the big thread, here is that delightful feat you composed:

Check the Feats thread for King Solomon's Seal.

[sblock]King Solomon's Seal [Epic]
You can coerce fiendish nobility into service.
Prerequisites: Epic Spellcasting, Epic Spell Focus (Conjuration), Knowledge (arcana) 33 ranks, Knowledge (the planes) 33 ranks, Spellcraft 33 ranks, able to cast greater planar binding as an arcane spell.
Benefits: When you develop a spell incorporating the [call] and [compel] seeds which is aimed specifically at calling and exacting service from fiendish nobility (such as demon princes or dukes of hell), you do not have to pay the usual cost associated with calling unique entities. Furthermore, the target creature makes any saving throw or spell resistance check against a spell developed this way with a -10 penalty.

[edit] We don't seem to be using a factor for unique entities anymore. But we are giving a bonus to spells that call a specific individual; perhaps this feat could reduce the USP of such a spell by 10. And [call] includes an element of service (for 200 minutes, at least), so the spell probably doesn't need to include the [compel] seed.[/sblock]

And speaking of cool feats, let's not forget this one (which can apply to various seeds, but especially to these ones):

Seed Spasm [Epic]
You specialize in the rapid deployment of powerful, short-lived epic magic effects.
Prerequisites: Epic Spellcasting, Quicken Spell
Benefits: Any spell which you develop as a swift-action 1-round spell from a seed with a base duration of 200 minutes or more gains +30 additional special free factors. These free factors do not count against the development costs of the spell, but their function must be allocated during spell development: only factors specific to the seed (such as an increase to an ability score from the [fortify] seed, or an increase in the CR of a creature subject to the [summon] seed), not generic factors (such as increasing range or a spell's Save DC) can benefit from these free factors.

[edit] I know we said 1 round, but I think it'd be good if the spell could be extended a few times (at +2SP per extension). Some battles might only take a round to fight, but most will take at least 2 or 3. So the base duration would be reduced (via mitigation) down to 1 round, but could be extended thereafter.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Hmmm. Know what? I've forgotten how preferred factors work. I know if they are not preferred you get only half the normal mitigation value, but I don't remember what that is. The half-in-mitigation full-as-factor rule- does it have anything to do with preferred mitigation?

Increasing casting time to one hour is -8, isn't it (standard action => 1 round => 1 minute => 10 minutes => 1 hour is four steps at -2 each). Or is that when it is not preferred?

Is decreasing range by two steps (long to close) worth -4? Or only -2?

Help!

If a mitigating factor is preferred it just costs the regular amount - e.g. 1 point of backlash will reduce the SP of a spell by 1 point. Non-preferred mitigation is only half-as-efficient - e.g. you'd have to suffer 2 points of backlash to mitigate the SP of a [call] spell by one point.

I've kind of assumed that range and duration mitigating factors are 'always preferred,' because the seeds themselves are balanced on that basis. -2 per increment.

It also occurs to me that we don't have any flexibility/limitation in the [call] seed regarding whether a spell is developed to target a specific individual. I think this should be worth a hefty discount - maybe even as high as -10. It's not like a call Amon (or whatever) spell is upgradeable in the usual sense, either - sure, when you're 10 levels higher you could modify it so that Amon takes a -5 on his saving throw, but he's not going to be much use to you at that point anyway. You'll want call Belial by then.

Edit: But I really like the idea of a Goetic magician cowing a powerful outsider to his will over time. This idea needs more investigation.

A -6 mitigating factor might be applicable to restricting [call] to a group of closely related creatures (demons, or angels etc.) and would be the corollary of the flexibility factor in [summon].

I'd assumed that a +10 factor to use [call] to target unique outsiders (such as Amon) would be exactly balanced by the loss of utility in the spell. You could develop a totally generic spell or a completely specific spell at the same cost.

By using the ensnarement/lure mechanic, a spell's developer could 'do the research' and target unique outsiders with a lower Wis score. The idea of a wizard thumbing through his clavicle and musing about which Infernal Duke is more gullible is kind of amusing.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Ok. I'm going to add Extended Casting Time back in for [summon] then. I used the "normal" value of -2 for reverse engineering summon monster. If the base spell uses a factor it should generally be preferred.

It also occurs to me that we don't have any flexibility/limitation in the [call] seed regarding whether a spell is developed to target a specific individual. I think this should be worth a hefty discount - maybe even as high as -10. It's not like a call Amon (or whatever) spell is upgradeable in the usual sense, either - sure, when you're 10 levels higher you could modify it so that Amon takes a -5 on his saving throw, but he's not going to be much use to you at that point anyway. You'll want call Belial by then.

Edit: But I really like the idea of a Goetic magician cowing a powerful outsider to his will over time. This idea needs more investigation.

A -6 mitigating factor might be applicable to restricting [call] to a group of closely related creatures (demons, or angels etc.) and would be the corollary of the flexibility factor in [summon].

I'd assumed that a +10 factor to use [call] to target unique outsiders (such as Amon) would be exactly balanced by the loss of utility in the spell. You could develop a totally generic spell or a completely specific spell at the same cost.

By using the ensnarement/lure mechanic, a spell's developer could 'do the research' and target unique outsiders with a lower Wis score. The idea of a wizard thumbing through his clavicle and musing about which Infernal Duke is more gullible is kind of amusing.

How much would it cost to research call Belial if you have call Amon as a model? I suppose you'd have to subtract the additional CR factors for Amon, and then add the CR factors for Belial. It'd be expensive.

I like it. I'll incorporate some additional factors.

And I like the idea of a wizard musing over the gullibility of Infernal Dukes.

 

[Cheiromancer]

This spell can affect undead and other creatures immune to mind-affecting compulsions. The "bypass immunity" factor is quite cheap; it's like the quicken factor of [polymorph].

[Binding]
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]

Root Spell: Binding
Preferred Mitigation: Extended casting time, power components
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 75 ft.
Target: One creature
Duration: See text (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes

A binding spell creates a magical restraint to hold a creature. The target gets an initial saving throw only if its Hit Dice equal at least one-half your caster level.

Factors: When developing the spell you may choose to have it overcome a specific kind of natural immunity to mind-affecting compulsions (such as enjoyed by undead or constructs) by increasing the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +6 for each kind of immunity to be overcome. To overcome all spells and items which protect against mind-affecting compulsions (including mind blank and protection from evil) increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +4.

You may have as many as six assistants help you with the spell. For each assistant who casts suggestion, your caster level for this casting of binding increases by 1. For each assistant who casts dominate animal, dominate person, or dominate monster, your caster level for this casting of binding increases by a number equal to one-third of that assistant’s level, provided that the spell’s target is appropriate for a binding spell. Since the assistants’ spells are cast simply to improve your caster level for the purpose of the binding spell, saving throws and spell resistance against the assistants’ spells are irrelevant. Your caster level determines whether the target gets an initial Will saving throw and how long the binding lasts. All binding spells are dismissible.

Regardless of the version of binding you cast, you may specify triggering conditions that end the spell and release the creature whenever they occur. These triggers can be as simple or elaborate as you desire, but the condition must be reasonable and have a likelihood of coming to pass. The conditions can be based on a creature’s name, identity, or alignment but otherwise must be based on observable actions or qualities. Intangibles such as level, class, Hit Dice, or hit points don’t qualify. Once the spell is cast, its triggering conditions cannot be changed. Setting a release condition increases the save DC (assuming a saving throw is allowed) by 2.

If you are casting any of the first three versions of binding (those with limited durations), you may cast additional binding spells to prolong the effect, since the durations overlap. If you do so, the target gets a saving throw at the end of the first spell’s duration, even if your caster level was high enough to disallow an initial saving throw. If the creature succeeds on this save, all the binding spells it has received are broken.

The binding spell has six versions. Choose one of the following versions when you cast the spell.

Chaining

The subject is confined by restraints that generate an antipathy spell affecting all creatures who approach the subject, except you. The duration is one year per caster level. The subject of this form of binding is confined to the spot it occupied when it received the spell.

Slumber

This version causes the subject to become comatose for as long as one year per caster level. The subject does not need to eat or drink while slumbering, nor does it age. This form of binding is more difficult to cast than chaining, making it slightly easier to resist. Reduce the spell’s save DC by 1.

Bound Slumber

This combination of chaining and slumber lasts for as long as one month per caster level. Reduce the save DC by 2.

Hedged Prison

The subject is transported to or otherwise brought within a confined area from which it cannot wander by any means. The effect is permanent. Reduce the save DC by 3.

Metamorphosis

The subject assumes gaseous form, except for its head or face. It is held harmless in a jar or other container, which may be transparent if you so choose. The creature remains aware of its surroundings and can speak, but it cannot leave the container, attack, or use any of its powers or abilities. The binding is permanent. The subject does not need to breathe, eat, or drink while metamorphosed, nor does it age. Reduce the save DC by 4.

Minimus Containment

The subject is shrunk to a height of 1 inch or even less and held within some gem, jar, or similar object. The binding is permanent. The subject does not need to breathe, eat, or drink while contained, nor does it age. Reduce the save DC by 4.

You can’t dispel a binding spell with dispel magic or a similar effect, though an antimagic field or mage’s disjunction affects it normally. A bound extraplanar creature cannot be sent back to its home plane due to dismissal, banishment, or a similar effect.

Power Components

The power components for a binding spell include materials appropriate to the form of binding used. These components can include such items as miniature chains of special metals, soporific herbs of the rarest sort (for slumber bindings), a bell jar of the finest crystal, and the like. Opals are the preferred gemstone.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

[Binding]

Interesting choice. Some initial thoughts:

I would make this an esoteric seed; I think a prerequisite epic feat which also extended the remit of [compel] should also make [binding] available.

Animus Invictus [Epic][Epic Magic]
Your epic compulsions sweep all resistance aside, and the most potent methods of restraint are known to you.
Prerequisites: Epic Spellcasting, Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment), Spell Focus (Enchantment), Spellcraft 33 ranks.
Benefit: Epic spells which you develop with the [compel] seed automatically extend to creatures who would not normally be subject to [mind-affecting] effects, such as plants, undead, constructs and oozes. You automatically bypass nonepic protections against [mind-affecting] effects, including mind blank; you are entitled to an opposed caster level check to penetrate an epic spell developed with the [ward] seed which is keyed to the [compel] seed.
Special: If you possess this feat, you may develop spells using the esoteric [binding] seed.

A binding spell creates a magical restraint to hold a creature. The target gets an initial saving throw only if its Hit Dice equal at least one-half your caster level.

On the basis that all seeds operate at CL 20, I'd limit it to 10HD with a +2SP/HD factor progression to raise the cap for save eligibility.

When developing the spell you may choose to have it overcome a specific kind of natural immunity to mind-affecting compulsions (such as enjoyed by undead or constructs) by increasing the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +6 for each kind of immunity to be overcome. To overcome all spells and items which protect against mind-affecting compulsions (including mind blank and protection from evil) increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +4.

I'd drop these factors on the basis of the prerequisite epic feat.

You may have as many as six assistants help you with the spell...

I'd drop these factors, and simply make rituals a preferred mitigation. It could get confusing, otherwise. See special note below. I suppose we need to look at rituals again, at some point.

Rather than reduce the Save DC on the various types of binding, I'd increase the Spellcraft DC by twice as much.


[Binding](Esoteric)
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]

Root Spell: Binding
Preferred Mitigation: Extended casting time, power components, ritual
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 75 ft.
Target: One creature
Duration: See text (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes

A binding spell creates a magical restraint to hold a creature. The target gets an initial saving throw only if it has 10 or more Hit Dice.

Factor: To increase the cap below which creatures are ineligible for a Saving Throw, add +2SP for each additional Hit Die.

Regardless of the version of binding you cast, you may specify triggering conditions that end the spell and release the creature whenever they occur. These triggers can be as simple or elaborate as you desire, but the condition must be reasonable and have a likelihood of coming to pass. The conditions can be based on a creature’s name, identity, or alignment but otherwise must be based on observable actions or qualities. Intangibles such as level, class, Hit Dice, or hit points don’t qualify. Once the spell is cast, its triggering conditions cannot be changed.

Factor: Setting a release condition reduces the Spellcraft Prerequisite by -4.

If you are casting any of the first three versions of binding (those with limited durations), you may cast additional binding spells to prolong the effect, since the durations overlap. If you do so, the target gets a saving throw at the end of the first spell’s duration, even if the spell disallowed an initial saving throw. If the creature succeeds on this save, all the binding spells it has received are broken.

The binding spell has six versions. You may choose to default to any version for which you have adequately increased the Spellcraft Prerequisite when you cast the spell.

Chaining
The subject is confined by restraints that generate an antipathy spell affecting all creatures who approach the subject, except you. The duration is one year per caster level. The subject of this form of binding is confined to the spot it occupied when it received the spell.

Slumber (+2SP)
This version causes the subject to become comatose for as long as one year per caster level. The subject does not need to eat or drink while slumbering, nor does it age. This form of binding is more difficult to cast than chaining.

Bound Slumber (+4SP)
This combination of chaining and slumber lasts for as long as one month per caster level.

Hedged Prison (+6SP)
The subject is transported to or otherwise brought within a confined area from which it cannot wander by any means. The effect is permanent.

Metamorphosis (+8SP)
The subject assumes gaseous form, except for its head or face. It is held harmless in a jar or other container, which may be transparent if you so choose. The creature remains aware of its surroundings and can speak, but it cannot leave the container, attack, or use any of its powers or abilities. The binding is permanent. The subject does not need to breathe, eat, or drink while metamorphosed, nor does it age.

Minimus Containment (+8SP)
The subject is shrunk to a height of 1 inch or even less and held within some gem, jar, or similar object. The binding is permanent. The subject does not need to breathe, eat, or drink while contained, nor does it age.

You can’t dispel a binding spell with dispel magic or a similar effect, though an antimagic field or mage’s disjunction affects it normally. Epic spells incorporating the dispel seed are effective against a binding. A bound extraplanar creature cannot be sent back to its home plane due to dismissal, banishment, or a similar effect.

Power Components
The power components for a binding spell include materials appropriate to the form of binding used. These components can include such items as miniature chains of special metals, soporific herbs of the rarest sort (for slumber bindings), a bell jar of the finest crystal, and the like. Opals are the preferred gemstone.

Special: If this spell is cast as a ritual, a participant who contributes a spell of the Enchantment (compulsion) subschool counts double its level for purposes of determining the mitigating factor.

**

I'd like to include an Imprisonment effect in the [binding] seed; soul bind and trap the soul seem largely redundant with binding.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I suppose we need to look at rituals again, at some point.

Sounds good. How about now?

Last I recall about ritual casting, the leader needed to have the Leadership feat, and the mitigation was his leadership score. Although it seems that this bonus gets awfully high, and it doesn't seem to involve any real cost. Maybe we should go back to the drawing board and find something more like the ELH system- which is rather like binding, now that I think of it.

Oh, and there was a feat in there, too; Cabal Leader.

On the basis that all seeds operate at CL 20, I'd limit it to 10HD with a +2SP/HD factor progression to raise the cap for save eligibility.

That sounds good. We'll have to fiddle with it so that an 18th level wizard who casts a 9th level spell adds +6 to the guy's caster level. This boost would affect caster level checks against SR, wouldn't it? The spell description says "your caster level for this casting of binding increases by a number equal to one-third of that assistant’s level," and since binding allows SR, I'm presuming this bonus counts.

Based on the casting time of binding, I'd think a one minute minimum time for a ritual would be appropriate. I think we agreed on that before, but it's been a while, and I'd like to reaffirm it.

How about if the ritual adds 1 point of free factors per 3 spell levels contributed, and increases the caster level of the spell by the same amount? The spell contributed has to be of the same school as the base seed of the spell. A spell which incorporates a ritual effect has to specify what the free factors are used for. In the case of binding it would be to raise the HD/no save cap. In the case of a [summoning] it might be CR (if that is left open) or perhaps duration factors. Caster level boosts wouldn't so much be valuable in combat (the 1 minute caster time makes this use inconvenient) but might help very much in ensuring that nobody comes along and dispels your epic wards or curses or what not.

The esoteric [binding] seed allows ritually contributed spell levels to count as double.

A scheme like this would match up very well with [binding], but wouldn't get out of hand with other spells. A few issues are outstanding:

• How many folks can contribute to a ritual?
  I wouldn't mind capping it at 6.
• What is the effect of Cabal Leader?
  Maybe he can lead rituals with more people in it; up to 9, perhaps.
• If epic spells are contributed, what should they be valued at?
  Significantly more than a 9th level spell; they are a lot more valuable. I'd suggest that their value is 6+SP/6. Triple what a non-epic spell is worth. This yields similar results to Syneresis.
• What about contributions of xp, shared backlash, etc.?
  Dunno.

I like the Animus Invictus feat. I'm presuming it would apply to supernatural mind blank abilities such as you ascribe to Graz'zt.

Did you change your mind on the [Epic Magic] tag? Maybe I'm misremembering, but didn't you think it was redundant? At least I remember agreeing that it was redundant.

The [binding] seed looks really good. It shouldn't be too hard to expand its remit to imprisonment and soul bind. Just add two more options to the list.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Based on the casting time of binding, I'd think a one minute minimum time for a ritual would be appropriate. I think we agreed on that before, but it's been a while, and I'd like to reaffirm it.

Yes.

How about if the ritual adds 1 point of free factors per 3 spell levels contributed, and increases the caster level of the spell by the same amount? The spell contributed has to be of the same school as the base seed of the spell. A spell which incorporates a ritual effect has to specify what the free factors are used for. In the case of binding it would be to raise the HD/no save cap. In the case of a [summoning] it might be CR (if that is left open) or perhaps duration factors. Caster level boosts wouldn't so much be valuable in combat (the 1 minute caster time makes this use inconvenient) but might help very much in ensuring that nobody comes along and dispels your epic wards or curses or what not.

I like this; although if we go this route, rituals are no longer mitigating factors, per se. We'd need to drop them from the 'Preferred Mitigation' line, and instead include a note in 'Conditions:' "Spells developed with this seed can be cast as ritual spells." Some could, others couldn't - which seems more appropriate, anyway - a ritual [blast] seems rather odd. A compound spell which included a ritual-eligible seed as its base seed would still be eligible.

6 casters as a maximum number sounds good, too; I really like the idea that spells contributed need to be of the same school as the epic spell.

There were 2 feats - Ritual Adept and Cabal Leader. I think Ritual Adept should allow the number of casters which you can coordinate to scale with Spellcraft: (ranks in Spellcraft/3) would resonate with a 15th-level Wizard casting a binding spell, and would prevent rituals from getting too out of hand. It might need some additional perk, or it will be an unattractive epic feat.

I'd still like to incorporate the Leadership effect of Cabal Leader, but I'm not sure how. I think it should use a different mechanic to Ritual Adept, and not depend on the school of the contributed slot - in fact, I don't think that it should use spell slots at all. Or directly on the Leadership score. Maybe

No of free factors = (5*Level of your highest level spellcasting follower gained by virtue of the Leadership feat)

would work. Leadership score 43 (7th-level spellcasting follower) would mean 35 free factors; Leadership 56 (8th-level spellcasting follower) would mean 40 free factors. Maybe that's too much. It would scale very slowly, though - which is kind of nice.

I like the increased weight of contributed epic spells a lot, although maybe a flat 10 free factors would be easier.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Ok. Sounds like we are agreed on everything but the feats (I think it is appropriate for ritual being moved to a condition). Having an epic spell worth 10 is fine, too.

I like the notion of # of participants = (Spellcraft/3) playing a key role. If rituals are capped at 6 participants, then, given enough powerful casters, the feat might be worthwhile even at level 24 or so. 2 more casters means +6 factors and +6 caster level. That would be +24SP if purchased a la carte (+1 caster level is split into 3 separate factors). Not a terrible return on a feat, though most of the a la carte factors probably won't be useful. At level 36 you have 6 more casters (12 total) and potentially +18 factors and +18 caster level. Or more, if some of them are epic spellcasters. That's a nice feat, even if you are only worried about SR, or enemy dispels or something. Of course, you have to come up with twelve high level wizards to reap the full benefits, but that's OK; it serves to limit the feat at very high levels.

If one feat allows you to involve more participants, a different feat should allow you to get more out of the ones you have. Maybe get double the benefit of the donated spell levels, to a maximum of your leadership score? Every ritual spell thus gets the "special" text of [binding]. And double double is a triple, so you can't go too crazy with [binding] and this feat. Although really, if you have the leisure to cast a ritual spell like [binding], your opponent ought to be hosed.

I don't know about you, but to me "Cabal Leader" sounds like it should be the one that allows you to lead more people in a ritual; "Ritual Adept" sounds like it would let you perform more intense rituals with a given set of resources. Although it wouldn't be an oxymoron if the "Leader" feat involved Leadership.

Anyway, the one that is intense and tied to your leadership score: If you have six 18th level wizards contributing 9th level spells, a standard ritual would get 18SP worth of factors and +18 caster level (call this a "+18 ritual"). Doubled is 36, a leadership score which is pretty easy to meet, even for wizards. If you have a few epic spellcasters contributing slots (10 x 2) you would have a hard time making your leadership score high enough; but an optimized caster could reap a huge benefit. This is a good option for casters who associate with a small group of capable people. Epic Leadership is probably worthwhile for its own sake, but enabling you to get 75 free factors in a spell (and +75 caster level!) is just amazing.

The feat that increases the number of participants, and is tied to your Spellcraft score: it is not as flashy. You need the cooperation of more people, but your results could match that of a smaller, more intense ritual.

They do different things, so I wouldn't make one the prerequisite for the other. Having both feats together could be very interesting.