[Summon], [Call] and [Binding]

[Cheiromancer]

This is a rather stronger than the one in the long thread. But I think the summon monster spells are a little stronger than we thought. This seed also compares well with shambler.

[Summon]
Conjuration (Summoning)

Root Spell: Summon monster suite, shambler
Preferred Mitigation: Extended casting time
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 1200 ft.
Effect: Summoned creature or creatures no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart, whose combined CR does not exceed 18
Duration: 200 minutes (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You summon one or more outsiders or elementals whose combined CR is 18 or less. Summoned creatures appear where you designate and act immediately on your turn. They attack your opponents to the best of their ability. If you can communicate with the creatures, you can direct them not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. The exact type of creatures are determined in the spell development process, or the appropriate flexibility factor included (see below).

When the spell that summoned a creature ends, and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast which remain in effect expire. A summoned creature may not use any innate summoning abilities it may have or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any innate planar travel or teleportation abilities that it might possess. It cannot cast any spells that would cost it XP, or use any spell-like abilities which would cost it XP if they were spells. When you develop a spell with the [summon] seed that summons an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, the completed spell is also of that type.

Factor: For each +1 CR of the summoned outsiders or elementals, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +2. To summon a creature from another monster type (such as dragons or aberrations) increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +4.
Major Flexibility: To create a spell which allows you to choose from a pool of up to any 12 predetermined individual creatures who otherwise fit the spell's criteria; or alternatively to choose from any number of closely-related creatures (such as demons or angels) within the CR limit, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +6.
Sweeping Flexibility: To create a spell which allows you to summon any creature who otherwise fits the spell's criteria at the moment the spell is cast, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +10.
Special: A character with any summon nature's ally spell on his or her class spell list may summon animals, plant creatures, feys and magical beasts without incurring the normal surcharge for summoning a monster from a type other than outsider or elemental.

***

This has a kernel of 10 + (CR x 2), and duration and range factors totaling +14.

Note that the summon monster suite will have a flexibility factor of about +8; there are the dozen or so monsters on the one list, but taking 1d3 of a monster from the next lower list is quite viable; and 1d4+1 monsters from the list two levels down is probably a better choice yet. Using a summon monster IX to summon 3 bone devils (CR 9 each) yields the equivalent of a CR 16 encounter, better than any single monster from the summon monster IX list. CR 16 has a kernel value of 42; add in casting time (-2) and range (+6) and flexibility (+8) and you have 54SP; just enough for a 9th level spell.

Shambler yields a CR 13 encounter, with a kernel value of 36; add in range (+8) and +10 duration (+4 for two steps; 20 rounds to 20 minutes to 200 minutes; then +4 to go one step beyond the normal maximum, to 20 hours, and +2 for half a step to 7 days). Exactly 54; a little more expensive, since there is the added functionality of guard duty for up to 7 months. Allowing extra duration steps at +4 per step is pretty generous of the DM.

This beefy version of [summon] allows a beginning epic wizard to summon a balor without much difficulty. I wonder if that is too much; it fits the power curve I'm extrapolating from the summon monster suite and from shambler, but still...

[edit] Preferred Mitigation changed from "Backlash, XP Burn" to "None". I'm worried about a caster summoning a creature much stronger than himself.

[edit2]Preferred Mitigation changed to Extended Casting Time. 'Cause the base spells use it. Must remember that reduced range and reduced duration are always preferred.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I am tinkering with this seed to make it more in line with the [summon] seed. I am also incorporating more elements of greater planar binding. I have tried to put in more opportunities for role-playing, too.

[Call]
Conjuration (Calling) [see text]

Root Spell: Greater planar ally, greater planar binding.
Preferred Mitigation: Extended casting time, power components, ritual, XP
Components: V,S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 1200ft.
Effect: Called elementals or outsiders of CR 16 or less
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: No

A spell incorporating this seed calls extraplanar creatures to serve you. If you know an individual creature’s name, you may request that individual by speaking the name during the spell. Otherwise, you call an average specimen of the extraplanar creature. You may choose to allow your name, alignment and/or patron deity to be revealed to the creature which you are attempting to call. A target creature may decide to willingly fail its saving throw on the basis of this knowledge.

Factors: If you restrict [call] to a group of closely related creatures (demons, or angels etc.) you may reduce the Spellcraft Prerequisite by 6. Restricting [call] to a particular species (balors, trumpet archons, etc.) reduces the Spellcraft Prerequisite by 8, and restricting [call] to a particular individual reduces the Spellcraft Prerequisite by 10. If you choose not to restrict the [call] to a particular group or individual, you may instead choose to call upon a specific deity to send a creature of the deity's choice. The creature called may have a CR up to 6 less than would otherwise be the case, but will not attempt a saving throw. You may call upon a particular philosophical ideal (e.g. Chaos, Evil) to obtain the service of a creature associated with that ideal.

Factor (Special): By including [delude] as a descriptive seed (at +6 SP), you may develop a spell which misleads the target creature with regard to your identity and alignment, and portrays you as an ally with a similar ethos and sympathetic goals. Prior to its Will saving throw, the creature must first make a DC 20 Wisdom Check. If it fails the Wisdom Check the target believes your ruse, voluntarily fails its saving throw, and answers your call.

Creatures called by use of the [call] seed serve you initially for up to 200 minutes, and will perform tasks which you assign to them. Few, if any, creatures will accept a task that seems suicidal (remember, a called creature actually dies when it is killed, unlike a summoned creature). A called creature does not perform extraordinary services: it will not use any innate summoning abilities it may have or otherwise conjure another creature, cast any spells that would cost it XP, use any spell-like abilities which would cost it XP if they were spells, or perform actions to which it is philosophically opposed. If you wish to extend the creature's service beyond the initial period of 200 minutes, or have it perform extraordinary services, you must negotiate an additional payment with it (see below).

At the end of its task, or when a duration bargained for expires, the creature returns to you. At this time, you may renegotiate its service with you, or dismiss it back to its home plane at your option.

Note: When you use a calling spell that calls an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it is a spell of that type.

Factors: For each additional +1 CR of the called creature, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +2.

Factor: If your calling spell does not have an initial period of service, reduce the Spellcraft Prerequisite by 4. The called creature may become hostile if negotiations are not to its liking; use of a magic circle is recommended to ensure the caster's safety. A called creature may attempt to escape as described in the description of lesser planar binding.

Special: If you wish to extend the period of the creatures' service beyond 200 minutes, you must must negotiate with it to ensure its subsequent loyalty to you. For each additional 20 days of service rendered, a creature requires 1000 gp in goods and magic items for each hit die which it possesses. Such a contract is renewable; when you choose to finally end the contract, the creature returns to its home plane. If you require the creature to undertake especially hazardous tasks, the payment doubles. If you require it to undertake mundane tasks, or tasks to which it is philosophically sympathetic, the payment is halved. Called creatures will act at their own discretion within the limits of the instructions which you give them: evil creatures will seek to interpret the letter of any contract literally, twisting it for their own ends. Payment for extraordinary services (the casting of wishes and the like) is at the discretion of the DM.

***

Under optimal circumstances (a friendly creature willing to serve without fresh negotiations) this spell will compare quite well to a [summon] spell. You can get a CR 18 creature, same as with [summon], but one that is real.

Here's the kernel analysis:

kernel = 18 + (2 x CR)

Greater planar binding: 54SP for CR 18, close (+6), 10 minute casting time (-6), no initial service (-4) = 50SP. 8th level.

Greater planar ally: the same, but with an xp component, so 48SP.​

I am not sure if factors need to be added to call creatures of high status; demon princes and so forth. Allowing a saving throw makes a big difference. This question needs more investigation.

I am also wondering if turnabout is fair play. I'm thinking that with the appropriate factor (+6 or so), an extraplanar creature may be summoned even if it is not an outsider or elemental. Since PCs are extraplanar when they are not on the Prime, they would be vulnerable if they stray too far from home. What do you think?

[edit] Added XP to preferred mitigations. Lots of Call spells require an XP payment.
[edit2] Incorporated other suggestions

 

[Sepulchrave II]

This beefy version of [summon] allows a beginning epic wizard to summon a balor without much difficulty. I wonder if that is too much; it fits the power curve I'm extrapolating from the summon monster suite and from shambler, but still...

Didn't we have this conversation before?

Actually, I like it. I'm comfortable erring on the side of generous seeds right now, given Matt's demonstrated prodigious metamagic capabilities. A 21st-level caster can choose to [Call] or [Summon] a balor; if he summons it (say for 20 rounds, with no other mitigation), he gets unconditional service but doesn't benefit from some of its SLAs (teleport, summon etc.). Jacobeans are going to excel in conjurations anyway, by the looks of things.

It's 3.5 bone devils on average from summon monster IX (CR almost 17): also bear in mind that using this yardstick, Matt can empower this spell at 23rd level (5.25 bone devils = CR 20.6), albeit for only 20 rounds. There again, he can cast it 5 times in a day - that's a lot of bone devils.

A 21st level wizard who opts for a summon balor spell is only going to be able to cast it once in a day. A 23rd-level Jake could cast two of these in a day - by this time, they'd have an unmitigated 20-minute duration. A brace of summoned balors is handy, no doubt, but I can see a lot of situations where the bone devils - and multiple redundancies therof - might be handier.

We're stuck in the power vs. flexibility conundrum, as always. Multiple lower-CR summonees are going to be viable for Matt; at 30th-level he can triple-empower his summon monster IX (8.75 bone devils, CR 26.6). Jake can summon a solar - that's pretty sweet. But that assumes a WotC CR, and I think we should probably be looking at Pd28. Without mitigation or appropriate feats, the solar isn't available until level 37 using the Pd scale (SP40 for a 20-round spell). Lots to think about, here.

**

Edit: I'm wondering if a thread per seed might be a little excessive. You might want to consolidate a little.

 

[Cheiromancer]

We did have this conversation before; I persuaded you at the time that [summon] was too powerful, but it seems that in the end I was persuaded by you as well. I doubt this will be the last time I will change my mind, or the last time we will exchange positions.

Edit: I'm wondering if a thread per seed might be a little excessive. You might want to consolidate a little.

You might be right. It's the question of breadth vs depth. One thread to discuss everything was too much, but maybe a thread for each individual thing is too much, too. Perhaps Cathix knows how to merge threads? One thread for finalized seeds would be perfect. But if three controversial seeds are discussed in one thread, the conversation could get tangled.

Oh, and anything I put out here is subject to your editorial judgment, of course. You are generally a moderating influence, while I am still trying to explore the idea that a jacobean spell needs to be pretty powerful to match Matt's capabilities. I'm sure we'll find a balance.

I wonder if we can get ourselves mod powers for this little forum.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I remembered one of my concerns the last time this question came up: the issue of a caster summoning creatures more powerful than he is. The +1CR = +2SP will keep this from getting out of hand, but it is possible for a 21st level wizard to [summon] a CR 23 creature; reduce duration and range by two steps each and increase casting time to 1 round. Quite modest expenditures of xp can make the difference quite dramatic.

There's a similar issue with [polymorph].

This raises some difficulties with CR. Is a 21st level wizard a CR 21 even if he summons a CR 23 monster to fight his enemies? It seems counterintuitive to think that a CR 23 monster is worth more when it is by itself than when it has a wizard providing back-up. Sure it is not quite as good as a real CR 23 monster, and the wizard had to waste a round casting the spell,... but still it is a little troubling to me.

What's the CR of a summoned monster? One less than a real monster? Two less? How much (CR-wise) is the loss of one epic spell slot and 1 full round of actions? Is this worth worrying about?

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Preferred Mitigation: None is always an option, if you think this might be a serious problem. Let the caster do it, but make them pay.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Re: [Call]

The creature knows the name, alignment, and patron deity (if any) of the character attempting to call it and may decide to willingly fail its saving throw on that basis.

I think that fusing binding and ally is a good idea for purposes of this seed, but I'm thinking that arcane casters might want to keep their cards hidden. Perhaps if the caster could voluntarily make this information known, rather than the target automatically apprehending the caller (and his motives). i.e. "you may choose to reveal your name, alignment and/or patron deity to the creature which you are attempting to call. A target creature may decide to willingly fail its saving throw on the basis of this knowledge."

In the Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth there is a spell called ensnarement, which lures an extraplanar creature to the prime under false pretenses. It was updated in the Demonomicon article in Dragon, but the element of duplicity was lost: in the original ensnarement, the target thought that it was answering a gate spell from a sympathetic caster. A factor (say at a modest +2) which allowed a caster to make an opposed Bluff check vs the target's Sense Motive might be kind of fun.

The seed looks really good, though.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I'm glad you like it.

Re: Duplicity

I snagged the wording from Bringing Back the Dead (PHB 171). I'm thinking that what with gate, planar ally and outsiders summoning each other, that there must be a reliable mechanic for verifying who a caller is from. Of course there is probably the magical equivalent of phishing as well. I'm just concerned that if it is too cheap it will effectively render the saving throw meaningless. Although you would have to figure out the identity of someone the target would be favorably disposed to.

The point about anonymity is well taken. Can you suggest a mechanic for ensnarement? You don't think +2 is too cheap?

Isn't there a philtre of glibness or something that allows one to make a really good bluff check? If you are trying to ensnare a powerful outsider, you'd invest in some magical assistance. I would like to make this possible, but I don't want it to be too easy.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Can you suggest a mechanic for ensnarement? You don't think +2 is too cheap?

Given skill-boosting spells and potions, it would be.

Perhaps the inclusion of [delude] as a secondary seed (at +12) is high enough to merit a no-save ensnarement-type spell.

We're into ambiguous territory here, though - [delude] acts as a factor, rather than a seed. And all kinds of headaches will ensue when we combine instantaneous and non-instantaneous seeds, anyway - I'd rather not go there quite yet. It would work as a descriptive seed, though - I'm assuming descriptive seeds don't otherwise impact the spell mechanics.

Maybe this would work:

Factor (Special): By including [delude] as a descriptive seed (at +6SP), you may develop a spell which misleads the target creature with regard to your identity and alignment, and portrays you as an ally with a similar ethos and sympathetic goals. Prior to its Will saving throw, the creature must first make a DC20 Wisdom Check. If it fails the Wisdom Check the target believes your ruse, voluntarily fails its saving throw, and answers your call.

A solar would be duped 60% of the time by this factor.

Some kind of Sense Motive would've been nice, but some powerful outsiders (notably pit fiends) have nada - sad, but true. Using skills is always wildly variable.

We'd be moving away from the core mechanic quite considerably with stuff like this, but I'm OK with that. There's plenty of room for invention.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Pit Fiends don't have sense motive as a skill? How can you survive in the Nine Hells if you take everything said to you at its face value?

Re: Ensnarement

Let's draft a spell that deceives a creature, as compared to one that just heightens the call until a creature is likely to fail its save.

Hmmm. Know what? I've forgotten how preferred factors work. I know if they are not preferred you get only half the normal mitigation value, but I don't remember what that is. The half-in-mitigation full-as-factor rule- does it have anything to do with preferred mitigation?

Increasing casting time to one hour is -8, isn't it (standard action => 1 round => 1 minute => 10 minutes => 1 hour is four steps at -2 each). Or is that when it is not preferred?

Is decreasing range by two steps (long to close) worth -4? Or only -2?

Help!