Summon Monster feats and PrCs

[Rackhir]

Sure.

But consider: The Gate spell is also available at that level, can summon an Elemental Monolith, and you don't need to maintain concentration on it.

OT, but: Gate is a far better spell than Summon Elemental Monolith. That's not really news. As this is the first time I've ever played a long-term PC up to this level, the increase in power of 9th level spells still surprised me. Sure, I've DMed BBEGs with 9th level spells, and I've played in one-shots with 18th -20th level PCs......but it sure is different when you've gradually built your PC up over a few years of playing time. Wow.

Yeah, you can summon anything you want with Gate, but DMs are going to start imposing consequences if you use it too much (Anyone remember the Cascade from Solars summoning Solars summoning Solars....) and the XP costs preclude its use on a daily basis. The EMs are extremely formidable creatures and far better than anything on the SMIX list.

However, I've read on these boards that some (Thanee, I think?) have used the Planar Binding often enough to find it useful.

Any examples?

 

[Someone]

Actually, I think there´s a pretty good case to deny Gate the ability to call elemental monoliths with the base that the Gate is too small (a maximum of 20 feet diameter).

Any examples?

You may recall in that same story hour the whole "compacting" thing. You call the extraplanar creature, and then simply use diplomacy instead of the spell mechanism to force the creature to serve. Really, it´s like planar ally if you feel nice, and if not you can play nazi with them. It worked very well in a campaing I am playing in: I used planar binding with a hound archon and told him that I would erase the circle immediately if he promised to at least hear what I had to say. The hound archon agreed to help us, did wonders scouting a enchanted forest (really, something that can turn into a wolf, teleport and detect evil at will makes a damn good scout) then was sent back home using plane shift.

"small" outsiders can be very useful when bound. Since many can teleport, turn invisible at will, etc, they make extremely useful watchers, sentinels and messengers, if they stay more than one minute.

 

[Spatzimaus]

The first feat's okay. The second, though, is just way too much.

Making the summon time lower is a HUGE benefit, far more powerful than a Feat should be. For instance, I have a Shaper Psion with the Mind's Eye "Constructor" PrC (the best way to make an Astral Construct specialist); this class gets the ability to Quicken constructs a few times a day... at PrC level 10, and you don't get any spellcasting ability for that level. While a Free Action is nicer than a Standard Action, they're both a huge improvement over a 1-round cast time.

The only way I'd say it'd be balanced would be to make it only work a few times per day, and only reduce to a Full-Round Action. This allows you to break it into two Feats:

Rapid Summoning:
When activated, you can change the casting time of a Summoning spell to a Full-Round Action. This ability can be used twice per day.

Greater Rapid Summoning:
Gain one extra Rapid Summoning per day, bringing your total to 3.
When you perform a Rapid Summoning, you may spend two Turning attempts or sacrifice an additional spell slot one level lower than the Summoning spell to decrease the casting time to a Standard Action.

Requiring 1 or 2 prerequisite Feats just isn't nearly enough of a drawback for the Epic-level effect you gave it.

 

[farscapesg1]

I disagree with the summoning casting time. Unearthed Arcana set a precedent by allowing Conjurers the ability to drop their summon familiar ability for the ability to cast summoning spells as a standard action.

IMO, summoning spells should never have been given the full-round casting time to begin with. I never saw an issue with a standard action for the spells in 3.0. It was just one more "nerf stick" attack on the spell lists

Edit - 1
I personally don't have a problem with Augment Summoning requiring Spell Focus. To me it just makes sense. Personally, they should have a range of feat trees based off of each Spell Focus for each school of magic.

If the boosts work in your campaign great. I would actually prefer that the rules boosted arcane casters when it comes to Summoning, since fantasy literature has always depicted the wizards and sorcerers as the "master" summoners. The druids of course would still be the best as summoning natural creatures.

Edit - 2
Doh! Ok, why did I think the summoning spells were a standard action in 3.0? Oh well, I still stand my my opinion that there is no reason for those spells to be a full round action

 

[Scion]

I disagree with the summoning casting time. Unearthed Arcana set a precedent by allowing Conjurers the ability to drop their summon familiar ability for the ability to cast summoning spells as a standard action.

This doesnt mean that the choice isnt 'extremely' powerful.

But then I dont even have that book so I have no idea about what other things they do nor if there are any other balancing factors.

IMO, summoning spells should never have been given the full-round casting time to begin with. I never saw an issue with a standard action for the spells in 3.0. It was just one more "nerf stick" attack on the spell lists

Umm.. you may want to recheck your 3.0 phb

So far as I know they were 'never' a standard action. Unless I am completely off my rocker (I dont have a 3.0 phb with me currently).

 

[Nail]

That just seems wrong to me.

I see that's your impression.





So....how'd these feats look?

 

[Nail]

Any examples?

Err....Sorry, I lost my account's "search" feature a few months back. I'm pretty sure Thanee (on these boards), who plays sorcerers, had "Planar Binding" on his PCs active list of spells. I haven't read the story hour boards for (yikes!) over 4 months, but I'm sure there are some story hours with summoners in them that have used it.

Anyone have some more concrete examples?

As for Gate: the spell is whacked, no doubt about it. Especially that HD limit. Why the designers thought effects should be based on HD rather than CR I'll never comprehend. (Shrug). But hey, I work with th' tools I'm given, and right now my Clr 19 can cast Gate and (with a bit o' help and a smidgen of luck) summon a 56 HD creature.

And with a cap that high, there are some real whoppers I can pull outta there.

.....err, wait. Is my DM reading this? .........

 

[Rackhir]

As for Gate: the spell is whacked, no doubt about it. Especially that HD limit. Why the designers thought effects should be based on HD rather than CR I'll never comprehend. (Shrug). But hey, I work with th' tools I'm given, and right now my Clr 19 can cast Gate and (with a bit o' help and a smidgen of luck) summon a 56 HD creature.

And with a cap that high, there are some real whoppers I can pull outta there.

.....err, wait. Is my DM reading this? .........

Actually I don't think the cap being on HD is that much of a problem. Cr18+ creatures often have HD far in excess of their CR.

Er, isn't the cap on HD 2x Caster Level?

"You can call and control several creatures as long as their HD total does not exceed your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD do not exceed twice your caster level. A single creature with more HD than twice your caster level can’t be controlled"

Well according to that, I guess you can call larger creatures, but they'd better be friendly or at least non-hostile towards you.

 

[Nail]

The Making the summon time lower is a HUGE benefit, far more powerful than a Feat should be.

As you might imagine, I disagree. Still, I appreciate the input!

This feat (Rapid Summoning) is essentially a more limited version of the metamagic feat Rapid Spell, found in Complete Divine. As it's more limited (it only applies to summoning spells) and has a prerequisite, it is slightly more powerful (does not increase the spell level of the summoning spell).


...as for 3.0e summonings: yep, they were 1 round casting time too.

 

[Nail]

Actually I don't think the cap being on HD is that much of a problem. Cr18+ creatures often have HD far in excess of their CR.

Err......You haven't looked into the Epic Level Handbook, have you? One word: Yikes!

Not to mention the fact that the Celestial template (which grants the Extraplanar subtype] can be applied to any corporeal animal, aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, plant, or vermin of good or neutral alignment. That's a pretty broad list to let me chose from.

Er, isn't the cap on HD 2x Caster Level?

Yep. And on a lucky day that is my caster level cap. Say hello to my Clr 19's other feat (Divine Spell Power) and two of his magic items (Prayer Bead of Karma, Orange Ioun Stone).

I guess you can call larger creatures, but they'd better be friendly or at least non-hostile towards you.

As my PC is Good, I'm limited to Good aligned creatures. They tend not to attack me (immediately, at any rate).