Summon Monster feats and PrCs

[Scion]

So....how'd these feats look?

The first is incredibly overpowered compared to something in the core. Not necissarily a bad thing, but there it is.

Since it can stack with the one in the core then it is too powerful even then. (3 feats total, +8 to str and con for all summons.. ouch)

Since it can only be used by people with turning this limits it basically to a class that is generally seen as overpowered to begin with. More strikes against it.


As for the second, it makes the power level of summons go from 'weak but useful' to 'incredibly strong'.

I think as written it is too powerful. If it required having an arcane caster level of 5 or higher in order to get it then it would likely be all right.


Divine casters just dont need this sort of boost. The domain that you have picked already is fine. It has a powerful ability but its list has no new spells, which generally seems to be the tradeoff. The summons already last longer and are harder to get rid of, that is not an insignificant boost at all.


In other words, if the feats were limited more to arcane casters and had some sort of appropriate prereqs they would likely be fine. But for a cleric? wow.. way too much.

 

[farscapesg1]

Since it can stack with the one in the core then it is too powerful even then. (3 feats total, +8 to str and con for all summons.. ouch)

I agree with the idea that the feats are overpowered IMO. However, I do want to point this out. His proposed feat grants an Enhancement bonus. Augment Summoning also grants an Enhancement Bonus. Two Enhancement bonuses don't stack (right????).

Edit - What the heck am I saying???? I'm not with it today at all

OK, Rapid Summoning is fine as long as you are basing it off the ability that you can gain from Unearthed Arcana. In Complete Arcane, they created a feat (Obtain Familiar) that allows an arcane caster that normally wouldn't get he Summon Familiar ability to have a familiar. That means that they consider the Summon Familiar ability equal to a feat. Unearthed Arcana allows a specialist the ability to trade Summon Familiar for the ability to cast Summon Monster spells as a standard action. That sets it up to view the ability to summon creatures as a standard action equal to a feat.

Sacred Summoning is a limited version of Augment Summoning. Augmented Summoning allows all creatures to be summoned with the +4 to STR and CON, but by WOTC's standard requires two feats to be able to gain this ability. Sacred Summoning only works a maximum number of times equal to the cleric's turning ability. This completely depends on the campaign that you are running. If there are a lot of undead, you may be burning through the turn attempts and not be able to augment your summoned creatures much. If you never run into Undead, then there isn't the additional cost for this ability that there is for the wizard counterpart. You already have the turn undead attempts that are not being used. My opinion is that such a character should instead give up all turn undead attempts and instead gain the bonuses to STR and CON for all summoned creatures. Basically substitute the ability to turn undead for the cost of the Spell Focus feat.

 

[Scion]

you are right, I was working off of a short list that my last dm made for his games and it failed to mention the enhancement part.

That at least makes it better, but still too powerful.

 

[Staffan]

As for Gate: the spell is whacked, no doubt about it. Especially that HD limit. Why the designers thought effects should be based on HD rather than CR I'll never comprehend.

Probably for two reasons: Tradition (spells have always been HD-based), and because CR is a metagame value. What I mean by that last bit is that HD is more tangible than CR - it's a stat that determines a lot about the creature. CR is more of a summation of the creature's abilities, but doesn't actually determine anything by itself.

 

[Scion]

I should likely point out that in my own game I would allow both of these feats.

But this is because I have heavily modified arcane casters to make them more robust while taking out the broken/overpowered parts. In effect, I have boosted up several of the weaker classes.

But I would also let the feats apply to psionics and give people the option for other feats useing different resources to pull off.

Given the other conditions in my game which move things around a little these would be fine, so long as everyone had equal ability to pick up such things (changing the psionic version to a standard action as well, giving the psion an augment of 1 point for his astral construct that gives them +3 to all of their stats and able to be paid multiple times, that sort of thing).

Just like I wouldnt give arcane casters the ability to out heal the kings of healing I wouldnt give summoners the ability to out melee combat the astral constructs, it is about the only thing they are good for and it is one of the few areas psions are ahead of others. Summons are already great outside of combat and have many interesting options inside of combat.


Thought I would try to explain my reasoning further

 

[Nail]

Thought I would try to explain my reasoning further

Thanks!

Addressing other points:

• For Sacred Summoning, the bonuses are Enhancement, so they wouldn't stack with Augment Summoning, as has been mentioned.
• The Sacred Summoning works off of Turning Attempts, which are valuable for several things to clerics of all stripes. (Turning UD being only one of them....have you checked out the Divine feats in CD and CW?) My PC uses turning attampts against UD often enough, as well as for his Divine Spell Power and Divine Metamagic feats. So this isn't a "throw away" limitation.
• I'll skip comparisons to Psion (Shapers) in this thread, to avoid distracting tangents. (It was a DC 23 Will save, but I managed to roll high....)
• The idea of changing Rapid Summons to a full round action, rather than a standard action, is interesting. I'm not convinced (having played it for 13 levels worth of gaming -- more than a year in RL!!) it's over-the-top powerful considering its limits and pre-reqs, but........

Any other comments?

 

[Nail]

CR is more of a summation of the creature's abilities, but doesn't actually determine anything by itself.

well......

I "get" that HD are more concrete.


.....but they are a LOUSY way to measure a creature's power, and spells often need a metric to measure a creature's power. Blasphemy and Gate are prime examples where HD breaks down. There are others.........

For summoning, the system should be (IMNSHO ) based on CR, and opened up to the player's creativity and the character's resources. I love the idea of summoning different angels, for example, and being able to summon more-and-more powerful ones as my PC does research and gains levels. I could do that by slapping class levels on some kind of base "angel" race.....or on an existing creature, like a lillend or lantern archon. (Anger of Angels, By Sean K Reynolds, has stuff like this.....it's a great resource, BTW.)

As it is, my PC is stuck summoning a celestial triceratops. Ugg.........
........but that's a topic for a different thread.

 

[Nail]

I realized I wanted to respond to this....

I would actually prefer that the rules boosted arcane casters when it comes to Summoning, since fantasy literature has always depicted the wizards and sorcerers as the "master" summoners.

Sure....but who's supposed to be better at calling angels to their aid? Wizards or Priests?

Keep in mind that, as a cleric, my character is limited to calling only non-evil creatures. And if you look down the list, those are often <edit> *NOT* the best or most powerful.</edit> (If my cleric were Lawful or Chaotic, he'd be even more limited!)

Truth-in-advertising: I convinced my DM to allow Celestial counter-parts to the Fiendish animals and vermin. Celestial Spiders --> Oh my! Even so, being able to summon some of those demons and devils would have been nice. [Sarcasm]"Oh look, SMIV allows me to summon a lantern archon! Power incarnate! The Evil guys only get the Yeth Hound or Howler.....[/sarcasm]

 

[Scion]

Actually my players are going to really hate a battle that I have planned..

It involves a summoned lantern archon and a party haste (3.5).

A few aid spells, aura of menace, and the light rays..mmmm

(aid now does d8+caster level temp hp along with its +1 morale bonus to hit, aura of menace has a low save dc but its penalties are pretty hefty, and I assuming that the extra attack from haste will allow an extra ray attack).

 

[Nail]

Yea, I like 'em too. Me playing a Cleric of Good and Light does that.

I take it your PCs are evil? I'm a bit unclear on th' set-up.