Summon Monster Problem

[Larcen]

Ok, this just happened in our last session:

Our wizard used a Summon Monster II to summon a fiendish squid right above an opposing sorceress.

The DM allowed it because he said he likes to encourage "clever uses of spells".

The thing landed on her head and then grappled with all 10 (!) tentacles. Needless to say, she was too preoccupied to do much spellcasting, or anything else, after that.

Sure, the whole thing was amusing. Sure, it was clever. We all got a huge kick out of it. But...

I tried to warn our DM that he better consider the long term consequences of allowing this tactic. I even told him that my cleric might start dropping bisons (or in the future, orcas) on people from now on. I also told him that the squid may be too busy suffocating out of water and would probably just flop to the ground writhing in panic. But he let the decision stand and the sorceress was in a world of hurt, with no Reflex save, no nothing.

Everyone at the table agreed that this situation warranted a post on this board for opinions. Please let us know what you all think, either for or against....and why.

I guess the crux of the matter is this:

1) Can you summon (non-flying)monsters in mid-air.

2) Can waterbreathing (fiendish or otherwise) creatures survive, and act competently, out of water.

I am really worried that one day our game will become really silly when it literally starts to rain cats and dogs during all our battles.

 

[Otterscrubber]

Good Question

I have a few opinonis on this. First, i have to applaude your DM's decision to allow clever uses of spells. It certainly does add for amusing and interesting ideas to pop up in-game. However i woudl only allow some clever uses for a single adventure

After that particular gaming session though i would probably lay down a few rules though, just so things don't start raining cats and dogs as you say:

1) You can't summon things in mid air. Although I dont recall this as a limitation listed in the core books, i think it only fair else you run into problems like dropping large creatures on otherwise tough opponents. Any players who gripe about this should be reminded that there are a lot of enemy spellcasters out there that can also cast summon monster, and they probably outnumber the spellcasters in the group. This is just to keep things from getting exploited unreasonably.

If they were in some weird chaotic magic zone though i can see some exceptions to this for comic effect.

2) As far as creatures out of water, I would say yes they can survive for a bit and even fight. But they woulod probably be as effective as a character who was trying to fight underwater with no special equipment or spells to aid him.

This means big attack penalties, limited to no movement ability and probably reducing the number of attacks in the case of the squid. I have seen octopi out of water, but never a squid. I try to think of that, with the fact that the monster does its best to attack because it is a summoned monster, just not a very effective one out of its element.

 

[mikebr99]

If he is going to allow this... then why not summon everything overhead of your enemies... it's now raining orcs.

Definitely not a good precedence to start...

Squids should only be availible in or around a large body of water.

 

[Tobold Hornblower]

Edit: forget it

shilsen had it in the other thread:

1) No. PHB Chapter 10: Magic (under Summoning, pg. 157) says that a "creature or object" summoned by a spell cannot "apear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it."

 

[Crothian]

2) A squid out of water is not going to be that effective. It's used to being in water, not air. It's tactics would not work in with the freedom of movement it gets in the water.

 

[Larcen]

Thanks for all the responses everyone.

But, I see another problem based on the rules Tobold dug up.

According to the rules, it looks like you can still put a small-sized creature directly ON someone's head. A head COULD be considered "an open location on a surface capable of supporting it."..right?

I just know someone in our group is going to try and put, say, a small fire elemental onto someone's head, thereby igniting his hair or something. I am sure I can take a look at the various summoning lists to think of even worse things. In fact, using this tactic all those small beasties from the lower level summon spells suddenly have a lot more value...

(Come to think of it, the fire elemental in the hair IS funny... )

 

[shilsen]

Just reposting what I put on the other thread (Tobold already mentioned the first half).

1) No. PHB Chapter 10: Magic (under Summoning, pg. 157) says that a "creature or object" summoned by a spell cannot "apear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it."

2) I can't think of a reference off-hand, but can extrapolate off information in the MM. Octopi have a listed movement speed and a swim speed, whereas squids only have a swim speed. This implies that while an octopus would be able to move and function on land, a squid would not (although it would survive for a while). Seems realistic enough.

In one of my games a head would NOT be considered a surface capable of supporting something, but that's something Larcen will have to take up with his DM.

 

[Dr. Zoom]

I think "open" means "no other creature in that space." If it does not, it should.