Summon Monster

[ZSutherland]

A few days ago, there was a rant/thread about some of the new, direct damage conj spells going around. I asserted that conjuration wouldn't need such spells if summon monster spells (which, imho, should be the bread and butter of conjuration) didn't suck so badly. Some agreed, but some people stated they or their players made great use of these spells. I talked it over with my players, but they weren't having it. They won't touch these spells. So, if anyone would be so kind as to answer the following questions.

1. Do you feel the Summon Monster series is strong or weak? Why and to what extent?

2. If you use these spells, or your players do, what are their results? How are they commonly used. If you don't use these spells, why not?

3. Is it class specific? I.e. is it worth it for wizards because it's so versatile, but not as much for clerics since they're restricted by alignment. What about sorcerors?

4. Are some iterations of the series worth more than others? I.e. is it worth a 5th level slot to summon a Hound Archon for 9+ rounds, but not a 4th level slot to summon a lantern archon for 7+ rounds?

5. Whatever else you have to say on the topic.

I'd really like to either see these spells get used imc, so I either have to convince my players they don't suck as much as they appear to, or I have to come up with some sort of house rule to improve them, but I don't feel I have the experience with them to try the latter since they never get used in my games.

Thanks in advance,
Z

 

[Turhan]

My take on Summoning monsters

I ususally play wizards or rogue/wizard combos. I limit my own use of Summon further: I assume that my PC actually learns one name of one creature (one at a time that is, which means that if I learn a new creature for the same level, it means I researched that new creature's name in or out of game). that one creaure is the one I always summon for that level. This allows me to have the creature stats pre-printed and always ready for quick use- no reference to the PHB needed. I pop the mini onto the table and play.

I also tend to use the creature to create flanking situations for me or my co-players. Having a creature attack from the enemies rear is a good tactic.

When I DM, I allow the PC's to modify the strait creatures as their PC gains in power. For example a 12th level wizard who wants to summon a 2nd level monster (I don't limit the players the way I do myself) that he has used for "years" in game, I let them boost the creature in one of three ways: Add 1d6 points to AC; Add 2d10 HP; or, add to the damage done (either a flat 1d6 per hit or they can smite evil 1 or 2 extra times).

My experience with the power of the spell is not atypical from others: it seems weaker than some other spells that lay on a heavy direct smack. However, I like the RP aspect of the spell and having a "near familiar creature" summoned by the force of will of the wizard/sorcerer. I also like the ability of the summoned creature to run off and distract pursuers, or redirect the attention of guards so we can sneak past or sneak in or make a surprise attack.

 

[Arcane Runes Press]

I'd really like to either see these spells get used imc, so I either have to convince my players they don't suck as much as they appear to, or I have to come up with some sort of house rule to improve them, but I don't feel I have the experience with them to try the latter since they never get used in my games.

Thanks in advance,
Z

I've never felt that summoners got a fair shake in 3E, in as much as the spells have some use, they aren't very powerful in comparison to many other spells of equivalent level.

Which is why I wrote a sourcebook about it, that Ronin Arts has up for sale. If you give me your email address, I rustle you up a copy of it for free. It's got lots of options for increasing the versatility and use of summon monster, and summon nature's ally too.

Patrick Y.

 

[Turhan]

Hmm, should have proof read that one

Sorry about the spelling and grammar errors. How embarrassing.

 

[Berandor]

You can edit your posts and remove the words that ail you.

Edited to add (ETA): I just followed the link in your sig, Patrick. I'll have to wait till after Christmas, but I think I'll take a look at some of your books. A PDF for 1.85$ - what can go wrong? Great idea!

 

[shilsen]

1. Do you feel the Summon Monster series is strong or weak? Why and to what extent?

I don't think they are either too strong or weak, but think they are nicely balanced for their level. They might be slightly weak at the higher levels.

2. If you use these spells, or your players do, what are their results? How are they commonly used. If you don't use these spells, why not?

I tend to use these more than my players, who generally are not very creative with spell use. I generally use them to provide access to spells and special abilities which my spellcaster might not have, and to provide distractions and run interference in combat. I don't think they are much use as direct damage in combat and frankly think it's extremely uninimaginative to use them that way.

3. Is it class specific? I.e. is it worth it for wizards because it's so versatile, but not as much for clerics since they're restricted by alignment. What about sorcerors?

I think on the whole they're worth least for clerics, a little more for druids (for combat purposes, summon nature's ally can be a killer with a nice animal growth spell), and more so for sorcerors or wizards.

I'd really like to either see these spells get used imc, so I either have to convince my players they don't suck as much as they appear to, or I have to come up with some sort of house rule to improve them, but I don't feel I have the experience with them to try the latter since they never get used in my games.

Show your players their uses by having NPCs use them creatively and it may have some effect.

 

[fusangite]

1. Do you feel the Summon Monster series is strong or weak? Why and to what extent?

Compare them to Summon Nature's Ally; and it the weakerspell. Compare the average CR of the summoned monster at each spell level and you can see a discernable difference.

Secondly, it depends who is casting it. It is a weak spell for Sorcerors and Wizards. Why do we know this? Because it is a first-level Bard spell and a first-level Cleric spell. This is why Thaumaturgists tend to be clerics. If your Wizard or Sorceror is casting a spell a Cleric could, likely he is not making effective use of his time. I would make the same argument with Hold Person.

2. If you use these spells, or your players do, what are their results? How are they commonly used. If you don't use these spells, why not?

They are much more effective spells if your party has a Rogue; if a summoned monster is brought into a combat, they are doing their best work when they are flanking an important creature for the Rogue and allowing him to get in that sneak attack damage he other wise couldn't.

Summoning a monster is only a good ifea if you not only need someone to damage your opponent but if you also need a damage sponge -- if your frontline fighters need another creature there to soak up damage from foes.

3. Is it class specific? I.e. is it worth it for wizards because it's so versatile, but not as much for clerics since they're restricted by alignment. What about sorcerors?

It's worth getting if (a) you get the Augment Summoning feat and (b) you are a Cleric or Bard.

4. Are some iterations of the series worth more than others? I.e. is it worth a 5th level slot to summon a Hound Archon for 9+ rounds, but not a 4th level slot to summon a lantern archon for 7+ rounds?

There are too many possible permutations of this problem but yes, some summoned creatures are a better deal than others. I would recommend comparing CRs as a good starting point to figure all that out.

 

[Andre]

1. Do you feel the Summon Monster series is strong or weak? Why and to what extent?

At low levels, the duration is far too short. I would change the spells to read Duration: 1 minute + 1 round/level.

The lists of available creatures are too restrictive. One simple change: any creature listed as fiendish can also be summoned as a celestial creature; any creature listed as celestial can also be summoned as a fiendish creature. This change alone can double the number of available creatures for casters with alignment restrictions.

Lastly, a full round casting time is crazy for a spell with these limitations. I would suggest changing it to a standard action.

2. If you use these spells, or your players do, what are their results? How are they commonly used. If you don't use these spells, why not?

In 3.0, we quickly learned that the only really useful creature was the Celestial Dire Bear at summon monster VI. In 3.5 the same creature requires a summon monster VIII, which means it's never used.

I did get some useful mileage from the spell in RttToEE by summoning a few tritons and other water-based creatures in the Water Temple area. Otherwise, as others have said, the spells tend to be a bit underpowered.

5. Whatever else you have to say on the topic.

The one key advantage of these spells in flexibility. Unfortunately, the very short lists of creatures available at each level and the short duration serve to limit that flexibility considerably. My suggestions above are intended to address this issue while not making the spells "must-haves".

 

[Voadam]

The one round casting time hurts.

The fact that going for a lower chart is random whether you get one creature or three is poor design.

The fact taht it can be done under normal invisibility is nice.

The flexibility is good meaning you can go for encounter specific uses such as flying vs elemental vs a healing creature vs. a bruiser.

Also it means a sorcerer can get more uses out of his known spell.

Summoning fiendish dire bats to go after the flying invisible mage is cool, if not that effective.

Using critters to establish flanking is useful.

Seting up extra targets for your enemies so they don't target your real guys is good.

Having a secure NPC sorceress create new creature after new creatuer round after round has been fun.

My EK PC has learned some summoning but not used it yet.

 

[Jolly Giant]

I've yet to see a Summon Monster spell used in 3.x play. The full-round casting time, short duration and low CR monsters (compared to the casters level) available; all these factors help make Summon Monster a waste of spell slots... :\