drnuncheon
Explorer
Coredump said:
Not to nitpick, but summoned creatures can't summon creatures - it's in the DMG. So no chain of infinite balors.
J
Summoned Balor
- Thread starter Enkidu
- Start date
Not to nitpick, but summoned creatures can't summon creatures - it's in the DMG. So no chain of infinite balors.
J
jgsugden
Legend
The way it has been presented, a summoned creature is included as part of the CR of the creature that summoned it. That means that the reward for killing the summoned creature is included in the reward for killing the summoner.
So, what happens if you kill the summoned creature, but do not kill the summoner? Do you get no experience because you failed to kill the summoner *or* do you gain a portion of the experience for the summoner for defeating a portion of the summoner's strength?
This is not clearly addressed in the DMG, though a quick analysis would tend to point towards no expeirence being granted unless the summoner is defeated (which doesn't necessarily mean killed).
On the other hand, this can lead to some ridiculous results: An evil wizard teleports into a town and begins to summon horrible monsters to slay the local populace. The PCs rush in and fight off the army of monsters. They spend all day battling against all sorts of summoned monsters, but at the end of the day, the receive no experience because the wizard teleported away before they found him?
As a result, I've adopted the position that PCs get half normal experience for summoned creatures up to a total equalling the amount that would be granted for defeating the summoner. If they also defeat the summoner, the experience for killing the summoned creatures is treated as a part of the experience for defeating the caster.
So, what happens if you kill the summoned creature, but do not kill the summoner? Do you get no experience because you failed to kill the summoner *or* do you gain a portion of the experience for the summoner for defeating a portion of the summoner's strength?
This is not clearly addressed in the DMG, though a quick analysis would tend to point towards no expeirence being granted unless the summoner is defeated (which doesn't necessarily mean killed).
On the other hand, this can lead to some ridiculous results: An evil wizard teleports into a town and begins to summon horrible monsters to slay the local populace. The PCs rush in and fight off the army of monsters. They spend all day battling against all sorts of summoned monsters, but at the end of the day, the receive no experience because the wizard teleported away before they found him?
As a result, I've adopted the position that PCs get half normal experience for summoned creatures up to a total equalling the amount that would be granted for defeating the summoner. If they also defeat the summoner, the experience for killing the summoned creatures is treated as a part of the experience for defeating the caster.
In the module City of the Spider Queen there is a precedent for giving character some XP for summoned creatures. In the module, the BBEG tries to use high level spells like summon monster ix to give the party a hard time. These evil outsiders will teleport to the party's location and lay the smack down.
The module recommends giving some XP for the encounter (~50% or so) because the summoned creatures is attacking them completely independent of the BBEG. Furthermore it can't summon other creatures to aid it and it can be dispelled back to its home plane.
The module recommends giving some XP for the encounter (~50% or so) because the summoned creatures is attacking them completely independent of the BBEG. Furthermore it can't summon other creatures to aid it and it can be dispelled back to its home plane.
Since the rules are a bit unclear concerning this situation, I suggest the following:
If a creature is summoned during combat, you do not get XP for it.
If a creature is summoned out of combat, you get full XP for it because you could not prevent the summoning and have an additional opponent for the whole battle.
One might reduce the XP a bit if the heroes know that the creature was summoned and have access to the appropriate spells to get rid of the creature easily.
Kilamar
If a creature is summoned during combat, you do not get XP for it.
If a creature is summoned out of combat, you get full XP for it because you could not prevent the summoning and have an additional opponent for the whole battle.
One might reduce the XP a bit if the heroes know that the creature was summoned and have access to the appropriate spells to get rid of the creature easily.
Kilamar
Enkidu
First Post
thank u so much for help me in this topic u catch the main point even if my bad english ^_^
someone of u say to give some xp for defeat the summoned alone balor b and I'm agree in that cause the party risk for fighting the summoned balor....
but what's the sense, if a party fight a Balor B who in the combat summon another one b...so the party is figthing 2 balor together (CR20) B and b, give the party only xp for killing B ???
while if a party meet first b alone u give some xp (my question is what kinda CR is figthing b ?) then the party kill B in the same day and u give xp for a CR 20 ...the sum of xp is not the same.
Meet first b and then B is more difficult then meet them together ??? why I have to recive less xp fighting them together ?
If we follow in a strict way the rules at page 315 of mm3.5 and at page 37 of dm guide the answers to this thread will be so easy as poor of meaning and sense.
The only solution is the DM decision that will not rapresent in almost cases the rules
Let me edit to say also for people who think to NEVER give xp for killing summoned monster:
What is the difference between a summoned monster and a normal monster ?
If a party meet a girallon, a fire elemental or others animals do u think the first thing the party will do is detect magic,dispel magic, banish ?? to recognize if the monster is a real monster or a summoned monster ?
Do u think it will be easy fight a summoned monster then the original monster ? If u say yes it means that eveytime u meet a monster u use some magic to be sure if it's a summoned one or no
someone of u say to give some xp for defeat the summoned alone balor b and I'm agree in that cause the party risk for fighting the summoned balor....
but what's the sense, if a party fight a Balor B who in the combat summon another one b...so the party is figthing 2 balor together (CR20) B and b, give the party only xp for killing B ???
while if a party meet first b alone u give some xp (my question is what kinda CR is figthing b ?) then the party kill B in the same day and u give xp for a CR 20 ...the sum of xp is not the same.
Meet first b and then B is more difficult then meet them together ??? why I have to recive less xp fighting them together ?
If we follow in a strict way the rules at page 315 of mm3.5 and at page 37 of dm guide the answers to this thread will be so easy as poor of meaning and sense.
The only solution is the DM decision that will not rapresent in almost cases the rules
Let me edit to say also for people who think to NEVER give xp for killing summoned monster:
What is the difference between a summoned monster and a normal monster ?
If a party meet a girallon, a fire elemental or others animals do u think the first thing the party will do is detect magic,dispel magic, banish ?? to recognize if the monster is a real monster or a summoned monster ?
Do u think it will be easy fight a summoned monster then the original monster ? If u say yes it means that eveytime u meet a monster u use some magic to be sure if it's a summoned one or no
Last edited:
Endur
First Post
I'm not sure that the CR system includes the summoned demon for demons. It probably does, but I'm not sure.
The reason I say I'm not sure is because of all of the text about how the Demon is beholden to a creature it summons. So, the Summon ability that a Balor has, is the equivalent of Planar Ally, not Summon Monster. Summon Monster is figured into the CR. I'm not sure that Planar Ally is figured into the CR.
The reason I say I'm not sure is because of all of the text about how the Demon is beholden to a creature it summons. So, the Summon ability that a Balor has, is the equivalent of Planar Ally, not Summon Monster. Summon Monster is figured into the CR. I'm not sure that Planar Ally is figured into the CR.
UltimaGabe said:
Olive
Explorer
Kilamar said:
Actually the rules are very clear, as was mentioned before. Just because some people either don't understand the rules (you don't get XP for monsters, but you do get XP for dfeating the caster/creature who summoned it), or do understand them and don't like them doesn't mean the rules are unclear.
I can't get the SRD open on my work mac, and my books are at home but if you like I'll post a duote and a DMG pg ref later.
Endur said:
It says quite clearly that the balor has the ability to summon another balor, not call another balor. It's a summon monster ability, not a planar ally one. I'm not sure how a flavour text about one balor being beholden to another changes this? The rules provide for summon monster spells to summon specifc creatures.
ThirdWizard
First Post
Since casting a dispel magic will get rid of the creature, there's no way I'm giving full xp for a summoned monster. Just because the PCs go about taking it out the hard way doesn't mean its worth mor xp. If the PCs tie their hands behind their backs, would you give them more xp? And, yes, I know they might not be able to easily tell if its summoned, but casting dispel magic on creatures is almost second nature eventually, and I don't like the idea of altering xp based on poor PC decisions.
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