Summoned Balor

[Enkidu]

Actually the rules are very clear, as was mentioned before. Just because some people either don't understand the rules (you don't get XP for monsters, but you do get XP for dfeating the caster/creature who summoned it), or do understand them and don't like them doesn't mean the rules are unclear.

I can't get the SRD open on my work mac, and my books are at home but if you like I'll post a duote and a DMG pg ref later.



It says quite clearly that the balor has the ability to summon another balor, not call another balor. It's a summon monster ability, not a planar ally one. I'm not sure how a flavour text about one balor being beholden to another changes this? The rules provide for summon monster spells to summon specifc creatures.

We know the rules at page 315 of mm3.5 and at page 37 of dm guide
but it's so clear that they couldn't be followed strict cause the examples we add are the prove.


gfunk and jgsugden gives examples in wich they explain correctly how it have no sense consider in a strict way the rules

 

[Enkidu]

any others ideas ?

 

[DragonShadow]

Throwing my two cents in the hat, here.

Scenario:
Balor A enters combat with party and over the course of the encounter, uses his natural Summon Tanar'ri ability to bring another Balor (Balor B).
Balor A instructs Balor B to fight with the party, and flees.
PC's defeat Balor B, and Balor A is nowhere to be found.


The PC's have clearly won the encounter here, and thereby earn the normal XP for defeating the Balor. The Summon abilities are factored into the CR, because after all, if you could pull out all the stops if the need came up, wouldn't you? (If you asked me, I would tell you that any magical items arms/armor the PC's had would factor into their "CR".)

Now, even had the other Balor stayed for the end of combat, it would still be the same encounter, and so there would still be the same number of XP dolled out when it was done. (Note: Summoned monsters that also have a summon ability cannot use said ability for a certain number of rounds or some such.)

Should the PC's find the SAME Balor (Balor A that did the summoning) once again, or pursue him, I would consider it a separate encounter and award them full XP once again.

Sorry if I repeated anything, I didn't feel like taking the time to quote specific things.

 

[reiella]

[ Board Crash ]

 

[reiella]

[ Board Crash ]

 

[reiella]

I think you might have missed the point of his question.

Yes the second Balor would not be worth experience under normal circumstances, but what he is asking is:

If Balor A summons Balor B and orders Balor B to attack the party and then teleports away, Is Balor B worth XP for the encounter? According to the rules Summoned creatures are not worth XP so actually according to the rules Balor B would be worth zero xp.

Well technically, in that situation, the party should only get experience for Balor A. They 'overcame' the encounter with him, despite not killing him.

Now, let's say if Balor A summons Balor B and sends him off to interdict the party. It becomes a bit muddied. Especially if it results in a situation where Balor A never 'encounters' the party due to the interdiction of Balor B. By the letter, it's up the DM to decide if "dealing with Balor B's interdiction" constitutes overcoming "Balor A"'s challenge or not. And since, they managed to force "Balor A" to expend resources and reposition, I'd be inclined to say that yes, in fact that they overcame the challenge of Balor A. Now, how to decide what constitutes an encounter period is up to the DM, but I'd suspect either "this session" or "this adventure" to be the common determinant.

This results in a little Player Frustration if the party ever faces a Wizard with a Wand of Summon Monsters, a Cleric who casts Elemental Summoning, or a necromancer who has mass animated undead. In situations of dealing with a "Summoned Monster" motif, I'd go with a partial experience award for the summoned critters.

 

[Olive]

We know the rules at page 315 of mm3.5 and at page 37 of dm guide
but it's so clear that they couldn't be followed strict cause the examples we add are the prove.

gfunk and jgsugden gives examples in wich they explain correctly how it have no sense consider in a strict way the rules

Mostly this is due to a misunderstanding of the rules, not a problem with the rules themselves.

You do get XP when you beat summoned monsters, because you are overcoming a challenge. The XP you get is based on overcoming the creature who summoned the monsters, not the summoned monsters themselves. Make sense? So if a 17th lvl wizard summons 5 xills, and then teleports away then the PCs get XP for defeatign the wizard, not the xills. The DM may choose to award aprtial XP based on the fact that the wizard wasn't expending his full efforts or somethign else, but the key is that the XP is based on the wizard, just as if the wizard came from no whare, tried to disintergrate the PCs and then disappeared.

The CotSQ example is misleading because it's another example of WotC not actually thinkin through the rules they wrote.

Think about the reverse situation (from my game the other night):
A demon is bound in a cave, and the PCs wish to destroy her. They come up with an elaborate plan to teleport numerous lantern archons to the place where the demon is bound. The lantern archons do aproximately a third of the damage to the demon in the ensuing fight, plus helping the players survive with their magic circle against evil effect. Now, when it come to divy up XP I reduce the total by 25% because the demon is limmited by the binding she is subject too, but I don't consider the lantern archons to be extra combatants, not do I consider the PC's cohort as both the spells and the cohort are considered to be part of the PCs strength.

Giving XP for summoned monsters is like reducing a PCs xp because of the monsters that they summoned. What you do is give XP for the wizard who did the summoning...

DragonShadow has it right.

 

[Enkidu]

I wrote an email to custserv@wizards.com

I ask them

1)Do u recive xp If a summoned balor is forced to fight a party without the aid of the summoning balor ??

2)Why u consider EL 20 ? isn't it too much ? The summoned balor is a summoned creature it can be target by dispel magic and banish.

and they answer me

1. If the original balor is not helping the summoned balor fight the party, then you only count one balor in that encounter when assigning XP rewards.

2. Nowhere in the description of summoned monsters does it state that the summoned monsters are treated as a lower challenge rating than the non-summoned version of the monster. If the creature is banished, the DM is free to make any ad-hoc adjustments to the XP reward he feels necessary.

do u think they are right :\

 

[glass]

I wrote an email to custserv@wizards.com

I ask them

1)Do u recive xp If a summoned balor is forced to fight a party without the aid of the summoning balor ??

2)Why u consider EL 20 ? isn't it too much ? The summoned balor is a summoned creature it can be target by dispel magic and banish.

and they answer me

1. If the original balor is not helping the summoned balor fight the party, then you only count one balor in that encounter when assigning XP rewards.

2. Nowhere in the description of summoned monsters does it state that the summoned monsters are treated as a lower challenge rating than the non-summoned version of the monster. If the creature is banished, the DM is free to make any ad-hoc adjustments to the XP reward he feels necessary.

do u think they are right :\

Wizards' Customer Services are kinda famous around here for having no grasp whatsoever of the rules.

DragonShadow and Olive are right, Customer Services are wrong.


glass.


EDIT: punctuation

 

[Enkidu]

Wizards' Customer Services are kinda famous around here for having no grasp whatsoever of the rules.

DragonShadow and Olive are right, Customer Services are wrong.


glass.


EDIT: punctuation

ok thx I'll never write them anymore