Summoner wizards..do they suck or is what I have heard wrong?

[Takhisis]

I've always wanted to play a 4e necromancer yet it's difficult to find anybody who will allow third party content like Scythe and Cowel by Goodman Games and other takes on the 4e necromancer. People tell me "just refluff X class" but I don't like that for one reason...ability scores. Simply put, I cannot stand being foced to play a wisdom based necromancer. To me, a necromancer's powers should be based on intelligence or charisma. I know that's an anal nitpick on my part, but for me it's a big deal. I want a necromancer who is, actually, you know...smart. Or if int is not an option at least somebody charismatic enough to manipulate people. I just don't like the idea of using a wisdom based necromancer and while it may be a nitpick to most, it's a big deal to me and that's where my big problem, and this thread's main topic come into play.

Invokers, arguably the best summoners are out due to being wis based. Druids and other wis based summoner classes are out. So as far as refluffining goes...that leave me with the wizard. While refluffing a summoner wizard thematically works well for what I want, I have heard rather disparaging things about a summoner wizard's crunch. I've never EVER heard or seen any comment about summoner wizards being good at, well, summoning. I have however heard and seen many comments on them being sup-par at summoning. I've never played a summoning focused 4e wizard, so I have no idea how many of these statements are true. Thus, I posted this thread. Are summoner wizards any good at summoning? Do they suck at summoning? Are they "just meh?" Do they even get enough summons, (Including a level 1 summon) to actually be considered true "summoners?"

 

[DoctorNick]

Summoners are great at paragon and beyond. At heroic they're not really underpowered but you have to be willing to take some dailies that aren't summons (actually grasp of the grave is quite fitting I guess).

Now the encounter powers are kind of weak but none of them create permanent creatures anyway so you can easily take a better power and reflavor it since that's what you're doing anyway.

 

[Takhisis]

But will I be able to have any summons at heroic at all? Is there a good level 1 daily summon? Because a necromancer with no undead is not a necromancer, in all honesty. So if I have to wait until paragon to actually have undead minions I can summon that's not a good thing for my character concept. I guess I would have to refluff non-summon powers into summons or something? Such as making some of those powers which create persisting zones as summoned undead that for one reason or another stay in the same spot?

 

[Obryn]

I don't really know how to help you much here.

At low levels, you will only be able to summon one thing per day - or, probably, 4 encounters. This is probably way lower than you're looking for, and it's no matter what class you're playing.

With that said, I don't know that a guy who summons hordes of undead is a low-level character concept at all. That seems like a pretty established, mid-level character, you know? You need to start small with your summoner/necromancer, and work towards this undead hordemaster. While I always want to work with a player to make a concept become reality (er... "reality"), sometimes it's a matter of, "Gain some experience, and we'll get there."

I think a summmoner Wizard could work fine, though I don't have any in my own game. Wizards have enough necromantic spells to give you a good necromancy flavor, IMO.

One option you could look into is a hybrid Wizard/Invoker, to give you the widest range of possible summons. If you pick an Int/Wis race, you could pull 18's in both, and have your pick of angels, demons, and monsters to reskin.

-O

 

[Mad Hamish]

Just call Flaming Sphere a flaming skeleton and you're covered for level 1 dailies...

 

[Ahrimon]

While it would involve heavy tweaking/refluffing, the shaman has a decent always there summon from lvl 1 on.

 

[DoctorNick]

There are decent summons even at level 1. You just won't get a lot of them. Flaming Sphere is fantastic if you are willing to reflavor.

 

[Mengu]

This seemed like a fun exercise. I think with some reflavoring, you can make a fairly effective and fun necromancer.

[sblock]
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Necromancer, level 6
Human, Wizard
Build: Summoner Wizard
Arcane Implement Mastery: Tome of Binding
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Staff)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Tome)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 17, Dex 12, Int 19, Wis 10, Cha 12.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 16, Dex 12, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 12.


AC: 22 Fort: 18 Reflex: 20 Will: 18
HP: 52 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 13

TRAINED SKILLS
History +14, Arcana +14, Religion +12, Insight +8, Dungeoneering +8

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +4, Bluff +4, Diplomacy +4, Endurance +6, Heal +3, Intimidate +4, Nature +3, Perception +3, Stealth +4, Streetwise +4, Thievery +4, Athletics +2

FEATS
Wizard: Ritual Caster
Human: Arcane Familiar
Level 1: Toughness
Level 2: Versatile Expertise
Level 4: Unarmored Agility
Level 6: Skill Power

POWERS
Bonus At-Will Power: Nightmare Eruption
Skill Power: Eyes of the Deep Delver
Wizard at-will 1: Phantom Bolt
Wizard at-will 1: Winged Horde
Wizard encounter 1: Chill Strike
Wizard daily 1: Summon Dretch
Wizard daily 1 Spellbook: Flaming Sphere
Wizard utility 2: Shield
Wizard utility 2 Spellbook: Daunting Presence
Wizard encounter 3: Shock Beetle Swarm
Wizard daily 5: Summon Imp
Wizard daily 5 Spellbook: Visions of Avarice
Wizard utility 6: Summon Iron Cohort
Wizard utility 6 Spellbook: Spectral Hound

ITEMS
Spellbook, Magic Tome +2, Deathburst Cloth Armor (Basic Clothing) +2, Rhythm Blade Dagger +1, Cloak of Distortion +1
RITUALS
Comrades' Succor, Unseen Servant, Comprehend Language, Corpse Light, Spirit Fetch, Skull Watch, Enchant Magic Item, Clear the Path
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

[/sblock]

Book Imp familiar can be fluffed however you like, maybe a tiny poltergeist.

At-will
Nightmare Eruption - works fine as is
Phantom Bolt - a screaming ghostly skull
Winged Horde - a swarm of (undead?) bats

Encounter
Chill Strike - a ghostly hand appears and touches the target
Shock Beetle Swarm - could be shock scarabs, or maybe undead shocker lizards.

Daily
Summon Dretch - Insubordinate zombie.
Flaming Sphere - Flaming Skull or Flaming Skeleton
Summon Imp - Rotwing Ghast
Visions of Avarice - ghosts of the victim's past draw them in

Utilities
Daunting Presence - you're a necromancer, people should fear you when you want them to.
Summon Iron Cohort - we can call this the meat shield zombie.
Eyes of the Deep Delver - you don't need your eyes to see, you can see through the spirits of the dead.

So even at lower levels, with a good selection of powers, I think it's possible to capture the flavor of the necromancer. Picking the right rituals and a small amount of refluffing, and some DM assistance to get the items that will set the right tone such as the deathburst cloth armor, you're in decent shape conceptually.

Perhaps it's not the most optimized, but with staples like Winged Horde, Flaming Sphere, and Visions of Averice in your arsenal, you're not doing too shabby either. There are of course a number of alternatives to the power selection, such as Grasping Shadows or Grasp of the Grave, and heavier refluffing is always an option.

Also with prestidigitation, mage hand, and ghost sound, you can become more convincing at playing necromancer.

 

[ppaladin123]

Actually there is an undead familiar called the, "spectre" available at heroic tier too.

For paragon level you might want to multiclass to psion and take the "thrall herd" paragon path since it basically gives you a continuous zombie slave that you can have out at all times.

Also there are a lot of fun rituals to pick up....corpse gate, corpse light, undead servitor, skull watch, undead shroud, etc.

I'd probably go with a hybrid dark pact warlock|wizard, since the dark pact warlocks have a ton of nasty necrotic spells, domination, etc. It really fits the theme.

 

[jbear]

@ Mengu: Nicely done!

It won't let me xp you til I spread xp around.

Ok, let me play.

Lvl 1: Flaming Skull! What a cool idea, can't beat that! ANd yep, Dretch is the other decent summons! What's a Dretch?

Encounter lvl 1 Grasping Shadows totally fights: Shadowy arms rise up from the ground pulling your enemies towards an early grave! And it is also the best at this level imo.

Lvl 2 Utility: Magical Debris: At will summon Casper the Friendly Ghost(s) who is there to hinder your enemies' movements or Shadow Snake which becomes Serpent Wraith which does recon. Both decent utilities.

Lvl 3 Encounter Hypnotic Pattern: This is when Casper starts messing with your enemies' minds, possessing them and having them walk into sharpened furniture!

Lvl 5 : Summon Imp, Grasp of the Grave all seems to fit

Lvl 6 Utility: Summon Iron Cohort (totally agree) and Dispel Magic: You want to be able to send those summoned creatures back to where they came from when they get out of control (and of course other peoples creations and auras ... so handy in many situations!)

Level 7: Tomebound Ooze (renamed Living Guts?) sweet summoning spell right there!

Level 9: Summon Succubus! There's your Vampire Summons right there baby! Dominate ftw! Plus the rest. And Face of Death ... because in the mornings when you've just woken up you are a terrible sight to behold!!!!

Level 10 Utility: Summon Hammerfist Crusher (easily refluffed to Frankenstein's Monster!) or Circle of Protection (even Necromancer's aren't so foolish as to not find ways to protect themselves from the darkness the dabble with!)

Paragon Path looks solid. The ideas others have given about your familiar are great. Featwise ... well easy to refluff White Lotus Feats as Dark Creepy Necro Academy feats. I made this build in about 3 minutes, so i didn't look at anyhing in depth. But the Vistani heritage feat is wicked Imo, totally what a Necromancer would do when he glares at you!

In any case, with essentials, i'd put money on it that the official Necromancer is not far away.



====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Ana2, level 11
Eladrin, Wizard, Bonded Summoner
Arcane Implement Mastery: Tome of Binding
Background: Arcane Student Who Saw Too Much (Arcane Student Who Saw Too Much Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 9, Con 18, Dex 15, Int 21, Wis 14, Cha 11.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 16, Dex 12, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 10.


AC: 20 Fort: 19 Reflex: 20 Will: 20
HP: 68 Surges: 10 Surge Value: 17

TRAINED SKILLS
Athletics +9, Arcana +17, Dungeoneering +12, Religion +15, History +17

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +7, Bluff +5, Diplomacy +5, Endurance +9, Heal +7, Insight +7, Intimidate +5, Nature +7, Perception +7, Stealth +7, Streetwise +5, Thievery +7

FEATS
Wizard: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Careful Summoner
Level 2: Arcane Familiar
Level 4: Vistani Heritage
Level 6: Armor Proficiency (Leather)
Level 8: White Lotus Riposte
Level 10: White Lotus Enervation
Level 11: White Lotus Master Riposte

POWERS
Wizard at-will 1: Phantom Bolt
Wizard at-will 1: Winged Horde
Wizard encounter 1: Grasping Shadows
Wizard daily 1: Flaming Sphere
Wizard daily 1 Spellbook: Summon Dretch
Wizard utility 2: Mystical Debris
Wizard utility 2 Spellbook: Summon Shadow Serpent
Wizard encounter 3: Hypnotic Pattern
Wizard daily 5: Summon Imp
Wizard daily 5 Spellbook: Grasp of the Grave
Wizard utility 6: Summon Iron Cohort
Wizard utility 6 Spellbook: Dispel Magic
Wizard encounter 7: Tomebound Ooze
Wizard daily 9: Summon Succubus
Wizard daily 9 Spellbook: Face of Death
Wizard utility 10: Summon Hammerfist Crusher
Wizard utility 10 Spellbook: Circle of Protection

ITEMS

RITUALS
Unseen Servant
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======