Summoning, attack, bonus and penalty

[Shin Okada]

Summoning rule says,

• Attacks and Checks: If a summoning power allows the summoned creature to attack, you make an attack through the creature, as specified in the power description. If the summoned creature can make a skill check or an ability check, you make the check. Attacks and checks you make through the creature do not include temporary bonuses or penalties to your statistics.

Emphasis added.

Well, what is "temporary bonuses or penalties to your statistics" and what is not? I cannot find any definition what kind of bonuses and penalties are considered to be "temporal".

I guess something with duration or something save ends will be classified as "temporal".

But what about, say, bonus from Covenant of Wrath class feature?

Covenant Manifestation: When you use a divine encounter or daily attack power on your turn, you gain a bonus to the damage roll equal to 1 for each enemy you attack with the power.

Is this bonus considered to be "temporal"? Or not?

And another question. When the summoner is "weakened", will the summoned creature also inflicts half damage? Or not?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

i guess no...

it seems the idea of the summoned creature is that you won´t have to track any conditions currently affecting the caster.

 

[fba827]

this is just an opinion since there is not a hardline defintion on it.
-but the nontemporary bonuses are your abilly modifiers and implement bonuses and maybe a couple other random things that i'm not thinking of right now that are static (don't require any sort of "if, then" statement)
-the temporary bonuses are pretty much everything else (since they require a power to activate them, or a feature that says "if this, then that ...")

(having said that, i've seen people interpret the rule differently).


As for weakened and all that, i don't believe that the summoners conditions affect the summoned creature. Though the summoned creature could get weakened on its own.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I think temporary bonuses and penalties means exactly what it says. Anything that isn't available to you all the time is 'temporary'. The real question has to do with the 'you make an attack through' part. That implies you are attacking and thus using your own current attack bonus/penalty state. For instance if a human summoner has Action Surge and makes an attack through his summons does he get a +3 to-hit for AS?

Personally I think the answer that makes the most sense is that when you create the summons you transfer your current statistics, less any temporary changes, to the summons. This establishes its defenses, skill bonuses, etc. For non-attack purposes these are the stats the summons will use, maybe modified by its OWN situation. If it needs to make a skill check (say someone tries to hide from it, there is an opposed check vs Perception) those are the bonuses used. Defenses are pretty obvious.

The problem arises with attacks. There really is no such thing as a fixed attack bonus, they are always highly situational. Furthermore the summoner is making the attack, not the summons. OTOH 'temporary bonuses' are not to be applied. I think the intention is that the summons is attacking. The problem is they didn't really say that very well. They talk about attacks made through the summons but without temporary bonuses of the caster. I think the intent is that the attack comes from the summons and the caster's base attack bonuses provide the raw numbers for it to use to calculate the attack, then whatever bonuses/penalties would apply based on the situation of the summons would apply.

So for instance Action Surge wouldn't help your summons hit, but OTOH weakness wouldn't halve the damage of the attacks either.

 

[DracoSuave]

I think temporary bonuses and penalties means exactly what it says. Anything that isn't available to you all the time is 'temporary'. The real question has to do with the 'you make an attack through' part. That implies you are attacking and thus using your own current attack bonus/penalty state.

Except for temporary bonuses and penalties.

For instance if a human summoner has Action Surge and makes an attack through his summons does he get a +3 to-hit for AS?

That's a temporary bonus. So no.

Personally I think the answer that makes the most sense is that when you create the summons you transfer your current statistics, less any temporary changes, to the summons. This establishes its defenses, skill bonuses, etc. For non-attack purposes these are the stats the summons will use, maybe modified by its OWN situation. If it needs to make a skill check (say someone tries to hide from it, there is an opposed check vs Perception) those are the bonuses used. Defenses are pretty obvious.

This is true. If you get a bonus you don't always have, the summon does not... before or after you get the bonus.

The problem arises with attacks. There really is no such thing as a fixed attack bonus, they are always highly situational.

Except for your base attack bonus, your attribute bonus, your enhancement bonus, inherent bonuses, expertise bonuses....

So... actually... most, if not all of your bonus.

Furthermore the summoner is making the attack, not the summons. OTOH 'temporary bonuses' are not to be applied. I think the intention is that the summons is attacking. The problem is they didn't really say that very well. They talk about attacks made through the summons but without temporary bonuses of the caster. I think the intent is that the attack comes from the summons and the caster's base attack bonuses provide the raw numbers for it to use to calculate the attack, then whatever bonuses/penalties would apply based on the situation of the summons would apply.

Simplified:

You use any bonus to attack that is not temporary. See above.
Any bonus on -you- that is temporary is not counted.
Any bonus on the summons that is temporary IS counted. It IS still a creature.
You are considered to be attacking when it attacks. This matters for things like Opportunity Attacks and what not.

So for instance Action Surge wouldn't help your summons hit, but OTOH weakness wouldn't halve the damage of the attacks either.

If -you- are weakened, no the summons is not weakened. If the summons is weakened, yes, it does do half damage.

A summoning is still very much a creature. The intent is that it gets your basic bonuses, that you are attacking through it, but it is still its own entity and can take its own bonuses, conditions, etc.

 

[Markn]

Totally off topic, but so totally worth brining up.

DracoSuave's Avatar is Justin Beiber and his status says he is a harpy. Love it!

 

[DracoSuave]

Totally off topic, but so totally worth brining up.

DracoSuave's Avatar is Justin Beiber and his status says he is a harpy. Love it!

Wow.

That IS halarious.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Except for temporary bonuses and penalties.



That's a temporary bonus. So no.



This is true. If you get a bonus you don't always have, the summon does not... before or after you get the bonus.



Except for your base attack bonus, your attribute bonus, your enhancement bonus, inherent bonuses, expertise bonuses....

So... actually... most, if not all of your bonus.



Simplified:

You use any bonus to attack that is not temporary. See above.
Any bonus on -you- that is temporary is not counted.
Any bonus on the summons that is temporary IS counted. It IS still a creature.
You are considered to be attacking when it attacks. This matters for things like Opportunity Attacks and what not.



If -you- are weakened, no the summons is not weakened. If the summons is weakened, yes, it does do half damage.

A summoning is still very much a creature. The intent is that it gets your basic bonuses, that you are attacking through it, but it is still its own entity and can take its own bonuses, conditions, etc.

DS, its actually not at all as simple as it seems. The problem is RAW is actually contradictory in a fashion that is not easily resolved.

When your summons attacks, YOU are attacking 'through' it. Now, we are supposed to use the 'non temporary' to-hit bonuses, but actually almost everything is situational, in fact EVERYTHING except ability score bonus, level bonus, and any inherent bonuses that might ALWAYS apply. The point being the attack bonuses have to be established by what the character COMMONLY applies to most of its attacks. Unfortunately this isn't clear. Lets look at implements. When I summon my summons I might use a Tome. After that I may well switch to using a wand. I might then make an attack through the summons. Now, since its MY attack the rules state that I calculate a to-hit bonus. Well, I've already done that, but its not any longer applicable. The bonuses I added weren't temporary but virtually ALL bonuses ARE situational.

There has been a huge amount of discussion around this. As I said before, the sense of the rule is that the summons is 'attacking' and the power of your summons is dependent on what sort of enhancements etc you had when you summoned it. Certain oddities result though. For instance suppose I use a +6 sword as an implement to summon my summons, now I switch to a +1 Flaming Sword and make an attack through it. Hmmm, nice, I now have a +6 bonus effectively from the +6 implement I used, but I can use the power of my Flaming Sword implement to make the attack a fire attack. You can pull off some rather strange stuff this way.

Yes, of course it's its own creature and has its own bonuses. I never suggested otherwise.

 

[Shin Okada]

Hmm. So summoning rule seems to be a big can of worms still.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Hmm. So summoning rule seems to be a big can of worms still.

Eh, they actually work fine in practice. You figure the stats for the summons when it shows up on the board and then a couple of marginal issues aside it works well. Personally my answer to the implement thing is to just ignore the wizard's implement once the summons is on the board. Whatever implement you used to summon it, those are the effects you get with that summons for the rest of the fight. Prevents any problems.