Summoning: Casting times and preferences

[Sejs]

I find SNA to be a very powerful set of spells.

Ayep, seconded. I'm actually rather annoyed how, particularly at lower levels, SNA is much stronger than SM.

Hmm, let's see. A Lemure or a Celestial Giant Bee versus a Hippogriph, Dire Bat, or Small Elemental.

A Dretch or Huge Centipede versus a Lion, Dire Wolf, or Thoqqua.

Etc. Around the lvl 5 versions they start to even out because those fiendish and celestial templates actually start to be worth something for a change, but earlier on the people casting summon monster really seem to be paying for the label.

Just kind of sticks in my craw that the druid, in addition to the other benefits they gain, is a better summoner at lower levels simply by virtue of having a summonable creature list that somehow thinks a wolf is about on par with a fiendish raven.

 

[MarkB]

Ayep, seconded. I'm actually rather annoyed how, particularly at lower levels, SNA is much stronger than SM.

Hmm, let's see. A Lemure or a Celestial Giant Bee versus a Hippogriph, Dire Bat, or Small Elemental.

A Dretch or Huge Centipede versus a Lion, Dire Wolf, or Thoqqua.

Etc. Around the lvl 5 versions they start to even out because those fiendish and celestial templates actually start to be worth something for a change, but earlier on the people casting summon monster really seem to be paying for the label.

Just kind of sticks in my craw that the druid, in addition to the other benefits they gain, is a better summoner at lower levels simply by virtue of having a summonable creature list that somehow thinks a wolf is about on par with a fiendish raven.

And it gets even worse if you're a cleric. At least wizards and sorcerers get to use the full range of summonable critters at each level. Clerics get smacked down by the alignment restrictions. Taking Summon Monster V as a random example, the list contains 17 creatures, of which a CG caster can summon four, and a LG caster can summon five.

 

[frankthedm]

Yes, good clerics do have access to fewer summons. But the Number is 7 or 8, not 4 or 5. Air, Earth, Fire and Water are the four elementals the Elemental [any] covers.

[sblock=summon monster lists]]1st Level
Celestial dog LG
Celestial owl LG
Celestial giant fire beetle NG
Celestial porpoise1 NG
Celestial badger CG
Celestial monkey CG
Fiendish dire rat LE
Fiendish raven LE
Fiendish monstrous centipede, Medium NE
Fiendish monstrous scorpion, Small NE
Fiendish hawk CE
Fiendish monstrous spider, Small CE
Fiendish octopus1 CE
Fiendish snake, Small viper CE
1 May be summoned only into an aquatic or watery environment.

2nd Level
Celestial giant bee LG
Celestial giant bombardier beetle NG
Celestial riding dog NG
Celestial eagle CG
Lemure (devil) LE
Fiendish squid1 LE
Fiendish wolf LE
Fiendish monstrous centipede, Large NE
Fiendish monstrous scorpion, Medium NE
Fiendish shark, Medium1 NE
Fiendish monstrous spider, Medium CE
Fiendish snake, Medium viper CE
1 May be summoned only into an aquatic or watery environment.

3rd Level
Celestial black bear LG
Celestial bison NG
Celestial dire badger CG
Celestial Hippogriff CG
Elemental, Small (any) N
Fiendish ape LE
Fiendish dire weasel LE
Hell hound LE
Fiendish snake, constrictor LE
Fiendish boar NE
Fiendish dire bat NE
Fiendish monstrous centipede, Huge NE
Fiendish crocodile CE
Dretch (demon) CE
Fiendish snake, Large viper CE
Fiendish wolverine CE
1 May be summoned only into an aquatic or watery environment.

4th Level
Archon, lantern LG
Celestial giant owl LG
Celestial giant eagle CG
Celestial lion CG
Mephit (any) N
Fiendish dire wolf LE
Fiendish giant wasp LE
Fiendish giant praying mantis NE
Fiendish shark, Large1 NE
Yeth hound NE
Fiendish monstrous spider, Large CE
Fiendish snake, Huge viper CE
Howler CE
1 May be summoned only into an aquatic or watery environment.

5th Level
Archon, hound LG
Celestial brown bear LG
Celestial giant stag beetle NG
Celestial sea cat1 NG
Celestial griffon CG
Elemental, Medium (any) N
Achaierai LE
Devil, bearded LE
Fiendish deinonychus LE
Fiendish dire ape LE
Fiendish dire boar NE
Fiendish shark, Huge NE
Fiendish monstrous scorpion, Large NE
Shadow mastiff NE
Fiendish dire wolverine CE
Fiendish giant crocodile CE
Fiendish CE
1 May be summoned only into an aquatic or watery environment.

6th Level
Celestial polar bear LG
Celestial orca whale1 NG
Bralani (eladrin) CG
Celestial dire lion CG
Elemental, Large (any) N
Janni (genie) N
Chaos beast CN
Devil, chain LE
Xill LE
Fiendish monstrous centipede, Gargantuan NE
Fiendish rhinoceros NE
Fiendish elasmosaurus1 CE
Fiendish monstrous spider, Huge CE
Fiendish snake, giant constrictor CE
1 May be summoned only into an aquatic or watery environment.

7th Level
Celestial elephant LG
Avoral (guardinal) NG
Celestial baleen whale1 NG
Djinni (genie) CG
Elemental, Huge (any) N
Invisible stalker N
Devil, bone LE
Fiendish megaraptor LE
Fiendish monstrous scorpion, Huge NE
Babau (demon) CE
Fiendish giant octopus1 CE
Fiendish girallon CE
1 May be summoned only into an aquatic or watery environment.

8th Level
Celestial dire bear LG
Celestial cachalot whale1 NG
Celestial triceratops NG
Lillend CG
Elemental, greater (any) N
Fiendish giant squid1 LE
Hellcat LE
Fiendish monstrous centipede, Colossal NE
Fiendish dire tiger CE
Fiendish monstrous spider, Gargantuan CE
Fiendish tyrannosaurus CE
Vrock (demon) CE
1 May be summoned only into an aquatic or watery environment.

9th Level
Couatl LG
Leonal (guardinal) NG
Celestial roc CG
Elemental, elder (any) N
Devil, barbed LE
Fiendish dire shark1 NE
Fiendish monstrous scorpion, Gargantuan NE
Night hag NE
Bebilith (demon) CE
Fiendish monstrous spider, Colossal CE
Hezrou (demon) CE
1 May be summoned only into an aquatic or watery environment. [/sblock]Most time, even once the fiendish /celestial resists kick in, the SNA critters are still far superior to SM criters for why you want them. Beat down potential and HP. The DR, SR and ER Might help, more HD and damage out put WILL help.

I don't want my summon resiting attacks and spells for one reason... that makes my foe more likly to aim at me. If the foe knows they can't fight my summon, they will bypass it to get to me.

 

[MarkB]

Yes, good clerics do have access to fewer summons. But the Number is 7 or 8, not 4 or 5. Air, Earth, Fire and Water are the four elementals the Elemental [any] covers.

Good point - I'd forgotten that elementals count as four choices.

 

[Thurbane]

At our last session a lucky Monster Summoning IV really turned the tide of a battle, when I rolled 3 for my number of Celestial Bison. And the neat thing was, I got to stay Invisible the whole time. And my fellow party member, the Sorceror, cast a Major Image of another 3 appearing the next round.

 

[delericho]

My party were rather fond of summoning the Celestial Bison... I think the power gamers amongst them had determined that that was far and away the best creature to summon. Even so, they used them as a single-use weapon, that would charge (and smite) the nearest opponent, but afterwards were just a nuisance on the battlefield. (Even then, the only reason they could 'get away' with that was that there were so many casters in the group that they didn't have to fear always being attacked while casting.)

The only time I ever had an enemy spellcaster use a Summon spell was when said opponent had Invisibility going... the complete round casting time made any other application useless.

Furthermore, the extensive use of the Celestial and Fiendish templates made casting those spells a pain, especially when Augment Summoning was also used.

Basically, I think the Summon spells need their casting time reduced, at least to a full round action if not to a standard action. They could probably benefit from having the list of available creatures widely expanded (ideally, each MM should list the creatures within the book that can be summoned, and at which levels), and the use of templates reduced or removed.

Also, I think there should be a "Master Summoner" base class added, equivalent to the Warmage, Beguiler or Dread Necromancer. But that's not really relevant right now.

 

[MarkB]

My party were rather fond of summoning the Celestial Bison...

My wizard used to like them in 3.0, back when one could get endless amusement from the concept of a creature with a +8 butt. Then 3.5 ruined their comedy value by changing it to a gore attack.

 

[Thurbane]

They could probably benefit from having the list of available creatures widely expanded (ideally, each MM should list the creatures within the book that can be summoned, and at which levels), and the use of templates reduced or removed.

I second that motion - that would be a most welcome addition to any new Monster book.

Also, I think there should be a "Master Summoner" base class added, equivalent to the Warmage, Beguiler or Dread Necromancer. But that's not really relevant right now.

Possibly not relevant, but an excellent suggestion nonetheless.

 

[diaglo]

Okay, I haven't seen a lot of characters focus on the summon monster or summon nature's ally spells. The only ones that have have all made use of optional rules (such as the conjurer in Unearthed Arcana) that reduce the casting time.

So, would people use these spells more if they were standard actions? Is there really a need for them to have 1 round casting times? Personally, I've seen no real evidence that these spells are particularly broken (though I admit they can be pretty potent). I'm not convinced such a long casting time is necessary, and I've almost never seen anyone use them when they had to abide by that restriction.

Just curious what others think.

and to help spoonfeed the players more i think an increased summoning list is needed. way more examples for all the summon spells.

 

[Henry]

I play a high-level Druid on and off (just played this weekend) and the summoning spells are my bread and butter. I get more mileage out of them than I do any other spell. However, the 1 round casting time means I have to pick and choose when I cast them; Given the dangers of high-level combat, I will NEVER cast it in the midst of combat, because there's too many things going on, too many times I get damaged enough to break the spell, or fail a save and get distracted enough to ruin the casting. Instead, I either cast beforehand (elemental swarm or some such), or I have one or two Rapid Summons prepared ahead of time. The rest of the time, I'm casting std. action spells like cometfall, bombardment, flame strike, etc.