Summons and Dispels

[Stalker0]

Do you need to do a targetted dispel to take out a summoned creature, or will an area one do the trick?

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Area Dispel: When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell affects everything within a 30-foot radius.

<snip unrelated stuff>

If an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by monster summoning) is in the area, you can make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured that object or creature (returning it whence it came) in addition to attempting to dispel spells targeting the creature or object.

There you go.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Conceivably, then, if someone uses Summon Monster II to summon two Celestial Badgers, who each run off in different directions, casting an Area Dispel that includes one of them will end the spell that conjured it - Summon Monster II.

By that wording, the other would disappear as well, since the Summon Monster II is dispelled...

-Hyp.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Conceivably, then, if someone uses Summon Monster II to summon two Celestial Badgers, who each run off in different directions, casting an Area Dispel that includes one of them will end the spell that conjured it - Summon Monster II.

By that wording, the other would disappear as well, since the Summon Monster II is dispelled...

That's how I read it, though admittedly I've never carried the ruling to its logical end before now. I don't think it bothers me enough to House Rule it or anything.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Area Dispel: When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell affects everything within a 30-foot radius.

Check the errata. This is a 20ft-radius burst. I think you downloaded an old SRD or one that does not contain the errata. Personally, I recommend Hypertext.

Conceivably, then, if someone uses Summon Monster II to summon two Celestial Badgers, who each run off in different directions, casting an Area Dispel that includes one of them will end the spell that conjured it - Summon Monster II.

By that wording, the other would disappear as well, since the Summon Monster II is dispelled...

No, because an important part was clipped: "For each ongoing area or effect spell whose point of origin is within the area of the dispel magic spell, you can make a dispel check to dispel the spell. " Summon Monster is an effect spell, the effect being the monster(s) summoned (as you pointed out in another thread). Thus, only the monsters within the area have a chance to be dispelled, but each would be subject to the area dispel independently. Well, that's the way I read it anyway.

 

[Hypersmurf]

No, because an important part was clipped: "For each ongoing area or effect spell whose point of origin is within the area of the dispel magic spell, you can make a dispel check to dispel the spell. " Summon Monster is an effect spell, the effect being the monster(s) summoned (as you pointed out in another thread).

That's right. So as well as being able to get rid of both badgers by casting an area dispel that encloses either or both of them, you could also get rid of both badgers by casting an area dispel that encloses the point of origin.

Colonel Mustard casts Summon Monster II in the Kitchen and summons two Celestial Badgers. The Green badger runs to the Library. The Scarlet badger runs to the Conservatory.

If I cast an Area Dispel in the Library, an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by monster summoning) is in the area (the Green badger), and I can make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured that object or creature (Summon Monster II).

If I cast an Area Dispel in the Conservatory, an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by monster summoning) is in the area (the Scarlet badger), and I can make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured that object or creature (Summon Monster II).

If I cast an Area Dispel in the Kitchen, an ongoing area or effect spell's point of origin is within the area of the dispel magic spell (Summon Monster II), and I can make a dispel check to dispel the spell (Summon Monster II).

If Summon Monster II is dispelled, both the Green badger and the Scarlet badger disappear.

-Hyp.

 

[Infiniti2000]

If I cast an Area Dispel in the Kitchen, an ongoing area or effect spell's point of origin is within the area of the dispel magic spell (Summon Monster II), and I can make a dispel check to dispel the spell (Summon Monster II).

I disagree. The ongoing effect spell (SMII) does not have a point of origin in the kitchen. It's point of origin are the two monsters. Contrast this with a fog cloud that has a point of origin as a grid intersection. The following text, though somewhat vague, helps explain:

Subjects, Effects, and Areas
If the spell affects creatures directly the result travels with the subjects for the spell’s duration. If the spell creates an effect, the effect lasts for the duration. The effect might move or remain still. Such an effect can be destroyed prior to when its duration ends. If the spell affects an area then the spell stays with that area for its duration.

I underlined the sentence that I think is relevant. IMO, it shows that the point of origin moves. Clearly, for this to occur, both creatures must be considered the point of origin.

If Summon Monster II is dispelled, both the Green badger and the Scarlet badger disappear.

I also disagree with this. I think you need to specifically dispel both. The same thing occurs with a single casting of haste on multiple creatures. An area dispel that removes haste off one creature (but not any of the others) does not dispel the haste for all of them. For instance, if there is a lot of intraparty buffing with mass buffs (e.g. haste, mass bear's resistance, etc.), area dispels do not suddenly get much more effective.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I disagree. The ongoing effect spell (SMII) does not have a point of origin in the kitchen. It's point of origin are the two monsters.

The point of origin is where the two monsters appear. After that, the effect (the two monsters) can move away from that point of origin. But they aren't the point itself.

I underlined the sentence that I think is relevant. IMO, it shows that the point of origin moves. Clearly, for this to occur, both creatures must be considered the point of origin.

The effect moves, not the point of origin.

The same thing occurs with a single casting of haste on multiple creatures. An area dispel that removes haste off one creature (but not any of the others) does not dispel the haste for all of them.

Source?

You make a check to dispel the spell with the highest caster level affecting a creature.

If there is one haste spell affecting three people, and you dispel that one haste spell, the haste spell 'ends as if its duration had expired'. Why is it important which people were in the area of dispel magic when the haste spell ends as if its duration had expired? It's still only one spell...

-Hyp.

 

[Infiniti2000]

The point of origin is where the two monsters appear. After that, the effect (the two monsters) can move away from that point of origin. But they aren't the point itself.

I disagree that there is a single point of origin. Nothing about the description on effect, specifically for non areas, says that there will be one point. In case it becomes relevant, here's the definition:

point of origin
The location in space where a spell or magical effect begins. The caster designates the point of origin for any spells in which it is variable.

From what I read in the rules, only spread effects require that a point of origin be specified. For SMII, a single point of origin need not be specified. I contend that the location of the two monsters are the two points of origin given the first line in the definition above and I can find nothing that says otherwise.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Check the errata. This is a 20ft-radius burst. I think you downloaded an old SRD or one that does not contain the errata. Personally, I recommend Hypertext.

While that's a great SRD, and they may have errata'd Dispel Magic to 20 feet, it has absolutely nothing to do with the point I was making, which I think you know. The spell description specifically mentions the Summon Monster line, and how an Area Dispel interacts with such a spell.

The text tells us that if a summoned creature is in the area of the Area Dispel, then the caster can make a check to dispel the Summon Monster spell that created it. It says nothing about only dispelling the individual creature, a rather large distinction, so I'm not quite sure how you're getting there.

Incidentally, I'd have previously ruled that a Haste spell would indeed only be dispelled on a single target. But reading through the debate in this thread has convinced me I'm wrong. If Haste is dispelled...it's dispelled. For everyone.