Summons and Dispels

[Hypersmurf]

In case it becomes relevant, here's the definition:

Exactly.

Where did the magical effect - the badgers - begin? In the Kitchen.

Where they are now isn't important - it's not where they began - for the purpose of locating the point of origin.

For SMII, a single point of origin need not be specified. I contend that the location of the two monsters are the two points of origin given the first line in the definition above and I can find nothing that says otherwise.

The location of where the two monsters begin.

-Hyp.

 

[Infiniti2000]

How do you know it was in the kitchen and not just outside the kitchen? No point of origin is chosen, so where is it? Where is it required that a point of origin be chosen for SMII or that it even exist?

 

[Hypersmurf]

How do you know it was in the kitchen and not just outside the kitchen?

Where did the effect begin?

No point of origin is chosen, so where is it?

Of course it's chosen. You select where the creatures appear. Where the effect begins.

Where is it required that a point of origin be chosen for SMII or that it even exist?

You want the effect to begin, right? It needs to happen somewhere, and that decision is made at the time the spell comes into effect.

-Hyp.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

No point of origin is chosen, so where is it? Where is it required that a point of origin be chosen for SMII or that it even exist?

Well...

Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)

...
It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn.

There's your point of origin.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Well...

There's your point of origin.

I agree. And when there's two monsters such as in Hyp's example, there's two points of origin. Hyp contends that the (singular) point of origin and the location of the creature(s) are not the same thing (or at least are not necessarily the same points).

 

[Infiniti2000]

Where did the effect begin?

Of course it's chosen. You select where the creatures appear. Where the effect begins.

You want the effect to begin, right? It needs to happen somewhere, and that decision is made at the time the spell comes into effect.

So, now we're in a paradox? You can't have one point of origin if the effect begins in two places. Does the point of origin not move with the effect?

 

[Infiniti2000]

While that's a great SRD, and they may have errata'd Dispel Magic to 20 feet, it has absolutely nothing to do with the point I was making, which I think you know.

I can't tell if you're berating me for correcting your quote or not. If you post an rule erroneously, you should expect it to be corrected so that the error is not propagated to those reading this thread.

 

[Hypersmurf]

So, now we're in a paradox? You can't have one point of origin if the effect begins in two places. Does the point of origin not move with the effect?

No, it doesn't. The point of origin is where the effect begins. If the effect moves away from that spot, the effect has moved, but the point of origin has not.

Now, when you use Summon Monster II to summon two monsters, you don't have two Effects, each being one monster; you have one Effect, which is two monsters. The point of origin is where that Effect begins. It's not defined how that is determined when the Effect exists as multiple discrete entities, but my ruling as a DM would be to take the 'centre of gravity' of where the two (or more) creatures appeared.

If the Green Badger appears five feet north of the cookpot and the Scarlet Badger appears fifteen feet south of the cookpot, I'd rule the point of origin of the effect to be five feet south of the cookpot.

When the Green Badger and the Scarlet Badger run off to different parts of the house, the point of origin is still five feet south of the cookpot.

-Hyp.

 

[Legildur]

I'm interested in the answer as I currently play a 12th level Druid with the Augment Summoning feat and an occasional counter-tactic from the DM is to utilise Dispel Magic. So far he has only applied it against singular creatures where my druid has summoned only a singular creature. He hasn't yet tried the tactic against multiple creatures (typically Dire Wolves ).

I see two options for the area dispel magic to dispel both badgers:

1. So as long as the area dispel magic encapsulates the 'centre of gravity' then both badgers would be dispelled? or

2. The area dispel magic covers the squares the badgers were originally summoned into?

I'm not 100% happy with (1) as it starts to break down with more than 2 creatures. Suddenly you may have to start calculating a weighted average to determine the centre of gravity. That and the spell doesn't specifiy a 'point of origin', only a range and that all summoned creatures must wholly be not only in range of the caster but within a maximum distance of each other (a fact that has caused me to lose some critters when summoning multiple large creatures onto a 'target rich' or congested battlespace). In my mind, that then leaves option (2) as the only sound solution.

(Edit) Or maybe you just rule that the various summons spells can't be dispelled by an area dispel magic as they don't have a point of origin? (of course, if the creatures themselves are caught within it, then they can be dispelled).

 

[Hypersmurf]

Suddenly you may have to start calculating a weighted average to determine the centre of gravity.

The simpler method is to note that "no two of which can be more than 30 feet apart" can be approximated by a 20' radius circle. It's not perfect, but it's close (it provides a slightly larger area than that in which you could actually place creatures). The point of origin of the effect is the centre of a 20' radius circle that all the summoned creatures fit into.

And now you can use your fireball template to determine where that point is on the grid.

Coincidentally, that 20' radius is the same size as an area dispel, so your dispel magic will always cover the initial positions of all creatures if it's centred on that point anyway.

-Hyp.