Sunder -- The most useful useless feat

[Xarlen]

Even so, those mooks, 2 or 3 levels Below the party cound unload with untold spells, Save or Dies, or heck, instead of Breaking their stuff, why not Steal it?

 

[Malakye]

I love the Sunder feats! The main reason is that it's different. Something about going into a battle and destroying everything just appeals to me

If I destroy a magical weapon I could have used here or there, oh well, it was still fun!

 

[Xarlen]

Besides, we've seen many examples of weapons Breaking. Especially the Hero breaking the villain's weapon.

Look at Episode 1, where Darth Maul's weapon gets cut in Half. That's probably what won the fight, right there.

Or, a recent He-Man episode, where He-Man tricked Skeletor into Telekineticly throwing his sword into some Lava.

 

[Rackhir]

If this ISN'T the case, if Magical weapons are hard to come by, then plain and simple, DON'T BREAK IT.

If it is the case, if they Don't spend their heart and soul into that single weapon, and are just waiting to get a New one, then Bust it.

This is more or less the point I was trying to make since the begining.

Again. When Dieing isn't feared, because the character can Pop back up via a simple spell, then No, I do not consider Threat of Death to be a reasonable tension and fear.

Of course, I'm speaking in General; Ressurection is VERY RARE IMC, and I've not killed a PC yet. But, my campaign isn't everyone's.

Unless the characters have access to true resurrection (9th lvl Spell) they do loose a level from being raised, which is not an insignificant penalty. Not as a bad as a final death mind you, but not something any PC I know looks forward to. If they have access to True Res on a regular basis, then you are dealing with PCs for whom the game is a whole nother ball of wax. I haven't noticed by the way that the ready availability of ressurection has hurt the tension in either Piratecat's or Wulf's story hour. But, heck what do PC and Dinkledog know about DMing anyway eh?

Well, I sure hope that you have orcs and other humanoids, as well as all sorts of intelligent creatures that don't use smart tactics. Like range, reach, hight, cover, concealment, and thus thus.

Past moderate levels (about 6th or so) or extremely one sided situations, it's my experience that low HD humanoids are generally ineffective no matter what situational advantages you give them. But what does that have to do with high level fighters being (relatively) ineffective compared to high level casters?

I have No qualms about Blinding a caster with a spell, Holding a fighter, dropping a Silence ontop of them, having their items Stolen (So far my players are Very paranoid hand have avoided most things), Entangled, Ambushed, Mucked up, and the like.

Frankly, the PCs have walked through a cakewalk, and I *AM* taking the kid gloves off.

And, is not it in Literature that Heros often are denyed their weapon, and still they must try to win the day with their other abilites?

Beowulf fighting Grendil with his bare hands, then having his sword and shield break in the fight with the Dragon. I'm sure Hercules lost his strenght once or twice, and was forced to overcome some foe with his wits. Happens to 007 every dang time.

I don't recall advocating that Villians should use stupid tactics or that PCs should be handled with kid gloves? If there is no challenge there is no heroisim. Sunder, however if used on a regular basis, is just simply obnoxious. I can see a role for it in say a climatic battle or other rare situations as a method of "raising the stakes". Destroying treasured PC items simply because it was convinient, is no more fun for the players than getting hit by Slay Living everytime they turn round the corner.

I wonder what your PCs do when they can't hit something with their main weapon? Do they whine and cry, or do they Use A Backup? Do they even *have* a backup weapon?

My characters tend to be the fight to the death, never surrender types. From Wizardru's Story Hour

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=99&perpage=40&pagenumber=4

Tolerating no threat to his wife and children, Rackhir told the man “Leave. Now.” But the man just ignored him and walked towards Ravenna with a look of curiosity in his face. Rackhir fired a few arrows but the man simply caught one and snapped it in half. Rackhir drew out the enchanted battle axe and moved towards the man, realizing he was facing a far superior power. He said “This probably isn’t going to do any good is it? But …”

The Demon Prince of Deception looked at him and shrugged “Do what you must.”

Rackhir swung but the beast easily dodged him. Then with an absent wave of his hand, Rackhir was thrown against the wall. His skull was split, his bones shattered, and his blood spilling out.

As his vision blurred, Rackhir could see a small white form hovering nearby. A small man the size of his hand with a whirlwind instead of legs, the thing spoke to him.

“Hi. Um…look, we haven’t been formally introduced but I’m the Adjuticator. I was asked to keep an eye on you, and I’ve been the one talking to you. Look, you’re going to die. Now if you hold still a bit I think I can prevent that but it’s going to take me some time.”

Fraz-Urb Luu stood before Ravenna, studying her, not entirely sure what to make of what he saw.

Rackhir had little choice and the spirit set to work. It said “You can just call me Jono for now. You see I was tied to your bow to kind of keep an eye on you. That guy there is Fraz – you know – the Demon Prince of Deception.” Slowly Rackhir’s bones started to pull back together and the organs spilled back into his body. He thought more than said “Is there a way you can help me act against him?”

Jono just stopped. Then he said “Well, maybe… um… just stay still.” Clearly he knew something but didn’t want to say it. Rackhir thought “What is it? How can I stop him?”

Jono stalled, then said “You could stab him… with the bow…” Clearly doing this would represent quite a painful price for the spirit, and possibly for Rackhir.

Rackhir was never one to shy from a price however. His body was now repaired enough to let him move, and quietly he got up behind Fraz.

We were all rushing madly back to Rackhir. I was flying down the hall at a dangerous speed and opened the door in time to see Rackhir standing behind an ebon-skinned man. Rackhir’s leg was splayed at an impossible angle, and he was grasping his bow with both hands like a spear ready to drive it into the man’s back.

As we arrived the man turned to us, but Rackhir struck. The bow glowed an intense green light, with a small white sprite of light circling it at amazing speeds. Scorch managed to blurt out “Fraz! That’s Fraz!” The bow began crackling and burning with lightning, striking into the demon.

Then there was a growing light, as Rackhir and Fraz were swallowed up in a ball of white light. At its peak there was a flash that blinded us all. When we could see, both Fraz and Rackhir were gone. The bow had fallen to the floor, still engulfed in a greenish fire.

Does that answer your question as to how my characters would behave? Do you have a problem with your characters cowering and begging for mercy?

By the way, that's twice you've gotten personally insulting now. If you are going to behave like that, I would appreciate it if you would invest at least a bit more effort in coming up with something more creative and subtle than the equivalent of "Nya, Nya! You're a sissy".

Do you have a problem with Dispelling their buffing spells?

Villains are going to be smart. Take out what's the threat to you. Is that wizard Invisible and flying? Dispel him. Is he about to unload on you? Blind him. Kill him. *Stop* him. That fighter about to kill you with his Sword of Death? Then Disarm him, Trip him, or Sunder His Weapon. Especially if your BBEGs like to gloat, torture, and make the PCs suffer. Like Drow do.

What's the difference in the BBEG teleporting a bunch of Mooks to surprise the PCs when they're asleep and attacking them, and having the Mooks attack their weapons?

I have no problems with the first two, the third is getting a bit too much into the "killer DM" sort of behavior. It has a role, but like sunder, it should be avoided on a regular basis.

 

[ForceUser]

For the campaign to be fun, there have to be ups and downs. Win some, lose some. Risk of defeat. Risk of death. Risk of your favorite magic item being slagged. These things need to be present, because the greater the risk, the greater the reward. That reward? Fun. Having a good time and making good memories. If there's no challenge the game will quickly become boring.

So. Don't get so attached to a character or item that its loss will infuriate you to the point where you lash out at your friends. Instead, treat it as a point from which you can move the story forward. Instead of being angry IRL, let your character be angry, and roleplay appropriately. Maybe this guy could take a level in ranger so he could learn to hunt drow. Maybe, from this point forward, he'll seek out the drow on the battlefield first, tactics be damned. Maybe next time, he won't stand within reach of a powerful foe in melee

Live, learn, and let the story progress. Don't get wrapped up over an item.

This is especially sage advice for players in my campaign, if they read this

 

[Someone]

Your players have problems understanding that you didn´t sundered the bow, the drow was the one that did it.

 

[Jondor_Battlehammer]

I had an Arcane Archer once and in a certain combat he was the only one capable of doing damage, the rest of the group covered me so my bow couldnt be sundered and that I wouldnt be killed. If only one guy does damage, you have to protect him.
I like the sunder feat, and I will make a fighter with it someday.

cloaker

I'll second that. T-e-a-m work, people.

You did the right thing with the drow. They probably pulled enough treasure off the Drow alone to compensate, so I shed no tears. It's a little off topic, but something to consider. I have an enhancment bonus IMC that allows you to ignore any result that breaks a weapon, but does it once, and then dissapears. It would then need to be renchanted, no doubt at a higher cost, but better than reforging the whole weapon. It's a +1 for breakage, a +1 to double the weapons hardness from enhancement bonuses, or a +5 for the deluxe model which saves it from anything, even a Disjunction. This may help by giving them an option. If the Drow's first sunder failed because of this, he would be unlikely to try a second time, unless he made a good gusse as to what was up.

 

[the Jester]

Rackhir: I don't think anyone here is seriously advocating sundering everything in every fight, and that's really bad tactics anyway. Think about it: if you miss/fail your sunder attempt, you've given your foe an extra attack on you.

The idea of sending in the mooks with GMW to attack the weapons- well, unless they're under some gnarly compulsion, I'd think that they'd rather try to take out the guys who are beating them to death than their weapons. Your average lackey isn't willing to throw his life away for his lord's tactics (at least, not usually, not imc).

Your comment on handing out too much magic seems more like an issue with baseline treasure values in 3e than anything. I give out treasure almost _exclusively_ by random generation, both because I like rolling dice and because I see no reason why the high-level fighter villain would be using a scimitar just because the party has a druid in it; he'll either have commissioned or bought the best weapon for his feats, tactics, etc., or else taken what he's found and built tactics around that. The party I run has no monks but found magic nunchakus. Well, thanks to baseline assumptions about wealth and magic item creation in 3e, they sold 'em to buy something more suited to the party.

YMMV, but going by the baseline assumptions on treasure and magic in the DMG, nobody oughta get that uptight about losing their treasured stuff. Heck, my dwarven ranger had a keen shortsword so I took improved crit/shortsword. Two games later I lost ALL my magic items (damn talons card!). Was _I_ upset about it? Well, for a few minutes. Was _HE_ upset about it? Yeah- he still is. Is that improved crit feat a waste? Well, it would be better if it was in the longsword. OH WELL. That is part of the price I paid for assuming I'd have that sword around.

I agree with whoever it was that said he uses trips, sunders, disarms, bull rushes, etc. to keep combat interesting. Hit, miss, hit, hit, miss... boring. Hit, miss, trip, hit, disarm is much more exciting. All those feats exist to help spice things up.

IMHO, of course, and please don't take this as an attack; I just felt that you raised a couple of points I wanted to respond to, especially since I'm the one who said "whiny players" and you said "whiny dms"... I'm not a whiny dm. So far, I think I've sundered about two weapons since 3e came out. But I think it's a great tactic (especially when you're talking about earth elementals or similar monsters that deal tons of damage), and I think it's always good to have the threat that your great toys might get broken in the back of a pc's head.

Yeah, sometimes I've taken spellbooks away. Yeah, if a cleric has a MAJOR infraction I'll take away their spells for a while. I don't do any of it often, but adversity is the mother of invention. Or something.

Good gaming to you- whether you game my way or not!

 

[twjensen]

But. . .

I've always assumed that the NPCs have the same reaction to sunder as the PCs. Why, sunder that weapon? NO! I want to CAPTURE it because it's so valuable!

Thus, it rarely comes up for a weapon to be destroyed or even targetted. But, in the case of the overworked and fearing for his life Drow, you've got to expect some extreme tactics. And given that Drow have a reputation for being nasty, and no fun to fight against. . .

Your PCs need to learn that some creatures in D&D are to be feared. Drow and Dragons spring to mind. I think the best way to do this is to have Drow, Dragons and other scary enemies that occasionally surprise the party by doing something particularly vicious. And the whiny archer will eventually find / buy another bow anyway.

All that said, a good DM keeps track of roughly where the party is in terms of treasure value AND where EACH character is relative to the whole party. If the archer had a magic bow and nothing else meanwhile the fighter has a magic sword, a backup magic weapon, a magic shield, magical armor and a potion collection but the Drow sunders the archer's weapon, well, I think the archer player would have a serious complaint. OTOH, if all the players are roughly in balance but the archer seems to be dishing out more than his fair share of damage, well, then them's the breaks.

 

[Rackhir]

Rackhir: I don't think anyone here is seriously advocating sundering everything in every fight, and that's really bad tactics anyway. Think about it: if you miss/fail your sunder attempt, you've given your foe an extra attack on you.

Well, I was exaggerating what was being said, but try re-reading the first posts like Benben's. It was the general attitude of the posts.

The idea of sending in the mooks with GMW to attack the weapons- well, unless they're under some gnarly compulsion, I'd think that they'd rather try to take out the guys who are beating them to death than their weapons. Your average lackey isn't willing to throw his life away for his lord's tactics (at least, not usually, not imc).

Well, yes, things do depend on what your campaign is structured like. The flunkies don't even have to be on a suicide mission, they just need to get in a couple of shots. Especially if they are after fragile weapons like bows. But any BBEG should have at least a couple of suicide shock troops, they can expend.

Your comment on handing out too much magic seems more like an issue with baseline treasure values in 3e than anything. I give out treasure almost _exclusively_ by random generation, both because I like rolling dice and because I see no reason why the high-level fighter villain would be using a scimitar just because the party has a druid in it; he'll either have commissioned or bought the best weapon for his feats, tactics, etc., or else taken what he's found and built tactics around that. The party I run has no monks but found magic nunchakus. Well, thanks to baseline assumptions about wealth and magic item creation in 3e, they sold 'em to buy something more suited to the party.

Well, that was more a crack at the people who were complaining that magic items were too generic. They are only generic if you let them be. You don't have to tailor the items of the villans to what the party needs, one of the things I like about 3e is that you can have items custom made to what you want.

YMMV, but going by the baseline assumptions on treasure and magic in the DMG, nobody oughta get that uptight about losing their treasured stuff. Heck, my dwarven ranger had a keen shortsword so I took improved crit/shortsword. Two games later I lost ALL my magic items (damn talons card!). Was _I_ upset about it? Well, for a few minutes. Was _HE_ upset about it? Yeah- he still is. Is that improved crit feat a waste? Well, it would be better if it was in the longsword. OH WELL. That is part of the price I paid for assuming I'd have that sword around.

My character in the last campaign, carved his bow from the rib of a dragon the party killed, it took him 6 months of game time and about a year of real time before he was able to have enough time and money to get it finished and enchanted. The item had a history and a purpose (he wanted to use it to slay Iuz, eventually). Loosing something like that to some twit after all that time and effort is something I would find seriously annoying. I don't like wasting considerable time and effort, call me strange on that score.

I agree with whoever it was that said he uses trips, sunders, disarms, bull rushes, etc. to keep combat interesting. Hit, miss, hit, hit, miss... boring. Hit, miss, trip, hit, disarm is much more exciting. All those feats exist to help spice things up.

I have no objections to using other feats and what not to add some varity to combat. One of the characters in my current campaign specializes in trips and knockdowns. Sunder, especially when used against weapons that mean something to a PC is usually a cheap shot. It has a place, but it should be rare and it should mean something when it happens. If it's a disposable weapon, sunder away.

IMHO, of course, and please don't take this as an attack; I just felt that you raised a couple of points I wanted to respond to, especially since I'm the one who said "whiny players" and you said "whiny dms"... I'm not a whiny dm. So far, I think I've sundered about two weapons since 3e came out. But I think it's a great tactic (especially when you're talking about earth elementals or similar monsters that deal tons of damage), and I think it's always good to have the threat that your great toys might get broken in the back of a pc's head.

You have been polite and rational. Simply differing opinions, politely expressed are never an attack. Though the original "whiny players" comment was quite irritating. I am not totally opposed to the use of sunder, it should just be rare and I would hesistate to use it against the "symbolic" weapon of a character. The tone of most of the early comments was basically "screw the players, sunder everything in sight, if they complain they're crybabies". There is way too much of that sort of attitude towards players and it gets tiresome.

Yeah, sometimes I've taken spellbooks away. Yeah, if a cleric has a MAJOR infraction I'll take away their spells for a while. I don't do any of it often, but adversity is the mother of invention. Or something.

Good gaming to you- whether you game my way or not!

Well most of my favorite moments in D&D are desperate fights to the death, where you escape by the skin of your teeth, your wits and determination. Necessity is a great motivator

Good gaming to you as well.