Sundering a Magic Weapon

[Philip]

Now, if a PC specialised in Sunder, at least you can circumvent the sunder rules by using more creatures with natural attack. Still, I'm not a big fan of how easy it is to sunder weapons - two-handed power attack is normally more than enough to take a blade out in one or two rounds which is far too easy.

Pinotage

I dont think it is far too easy. You have to specialize to make it a remotely viable tactic. Even then it often takes multiple rounds to sunder an opponent's weapon. If that opponent could have been taken out by regular attacks in the same time, then sundering is worthless. I never see PCs take the feat, because the only weapons worth sundering are usually the weapons worth getting as treasure.

If you're a DM, just give all your PCs Improved Sunder as an experiment, you will then see they will hardly ever use it, really. If you are a DM complaining that it is too easy for your monster's to sunder the PCs weapons, then you only have yourself to blame....

Note: power attack gives penalties on the to hit roll, which makes it less likely to win the opposed attack roll.

And, if you have a cheesy +1 weapon that is effectively +7 in abilities, you only have yourself to blame if it gets sundered more easily. And if your DM target's you especially with sunder attacks, and not others who wield straight +5 weapons, then obviously something else is wrong since monster's cannot smell the hardness or hp of a weapon.

 

[Evilhalfling]

Remotely viable only with specialization?
When attacked by a Balor, our first move was to sunder the +1 vorpal (large long sword)
well except it started an argument over if it was a 20 hp or 70 hp weapon.
It had 4 attacks per round anyway, whats one more?
The DM decided it was the lower, but then didn't tells us that, we had it down to 2 hp when we gave up an I just piled crits onto him (see sig)

 

[Philip]

Remotely viable only with specialization?
When attacked by a Balor, our first move was to sunder the +1 vorpal (large long sword)
well except it started an argument over if it was a 20 hp or 70 hp weapon.
It had 4 attacks per round anyway, whats one more?
The DM decided it was the lower, but then didn't tells us that, we had it down to 2 hp when we gave up an I just piled crits onto him (see sig)

You just mentioned one of the very few scenario's where sundering a weapon might actually be helpful to the PCs. As your DM I would do one of two things, depending on my opinion if the players were metagaming because their characters don't know the average Balor's sword is only +1, and therefore doesn't has a lot of hp's.

1. If I think you were not metagaming I would applaud your action to try to Sunder the weapon. Smart tactics when faced with an opponent that has a good AC, lots of hp and a dangerous attack routine. Even then inviting the AoO and possibly not winning the opposed attack roll would make this tactic hardly broken.

2. I would give the sword 100 hp. if I suspected you were metagaming, saying that your best blows are only causing tiny cracks to appear.

 

[Pinotage]

I dont think it is far too easy. You have to specialize to make it a remotely viable tactic.

Not really. You only require a single feat, and you're going to optimised for this in any case. High str, two-handed weapon etc. Given that most enemies you face will have weapons you can actually sunder, it's too easy. A masterwork longsword requires 15 hp to sunder it. That 1st level half-orc fighter with 18 str wielding a two-handed greatsword can can take that down on average rolls with PA +1. That's just too easy.

Pinotage

 

[Philip]

Not really. You only require a single feat, and you're going to optimised for this in any case. High str, two-handed weapon etc. Given that most enemies you face will have weapons you can actually sunder, it's too easy. A masterwork longsword requires 15 hp to sunder it. That 1st level half-orc fighter with 18 str wielding a two-handed greatsword can can take that down on average rolls with PA +1. That's just too easy.

Pinotage

I am not saying it's very difficult to do when you have the right feats, equipment and the right situation. I am just saying you have to get the right equipment and even then there are very few situations that it is useful.

Just look at your Monster Manuals. How many monster's have weapons? My guess is just 25%-35% of the opponents you meet wield sunderable weapons.

Of those monsters only a small percentage will it be worth it to sunder their weapons, say 10%-20%. You are not going to sunder an 1st lvl Orc warrior's greataxe, you would just attack and kill him instead. You are also not going to sunder the evil barbarian's greataxe+2, because doing that would mean losing a big part of your treasure.

Even then, you have to succeed on the opposed attack roll, which is probably likely, but hardly garantueed, let's say that you win in 75% of all cases.

Then it must be useful as well. If your opponent can just draw a backup weapon or fight on with his natural weapons, you have probably gained only an insignificant advantage by giving up a significant resource: your attack. I guess that in 50% of the cases the advantage of sundering is not really significant.

So, when you multiply the probabilities you probably will make a truly useful Sunder attack, one that makes a significant difference, in about 2.5% of your battles. That alone does not justify spending a feat on. If you get Combat Brute as well, sundering starts to becomes a worthwhile option, but only for the specialists.

Is sundering weapons so easy as to be unbelievable? Yes, I would say. Is it so easy that it is a viable combat option? Definitely no I would say.

 

[Felix]

You have to specialize to make it a remotely viable tactic.

Not really. You only require a single feat, and you're going to optimised for this in any case. High str, two-handed weapon etc. Given that most enemies you face will have weapons you can actually sunder, it's too easy. A masterwork longsword requires 15 hp to sunder it. That 1st level half-orc fighter with 18 str wielding a two-handed greatsword can can take that down on average rolls with PA +1. That's just too easy.

Specific race.
Specific high stat.
Specific weapon.
Specific feat choices. (of 2 feat choices, must take Power Attack and Imp. Sunder.)
Maximum power attack.

That ain't specialized?

----

And speaking from someone who just recently retired a sundering PC, I can tell you that I didn't use it much, but when I did need it, I really needed it. You have no idea how relieved everyone was when I sundered the staff that was pumping out Horrid Wiltings in one strike. They didn't care that it was worth a lot... our lives were worth more. I thought it was a much better tactic to remove the offending object first than to start hacking into the evil guy who has a resivoir of who knew how many HP. If he lived many rounds longer, that would have been that many more Horrid Wiltings being poured down on the casters.

 

[Pinotage]

Specific race.
Specific high stat.
Specific weapon.
Specific feat choices. (of 2 feat choices, must take Power Attack and Imp. Sunder.)
Maximum power attack.

That ain't specialized?

Not for a fighter class, no. But I understand you point.

Pinotage

 

[Tiberius]

Besides, sundered magical weapons aren't completely destroyed. They can be repaired by people with the appropriate item creation feat, though it isn't cheap.

 

[Sir ThornCrest]

A player is playing a Stone child from the races of stone book, ubber str ubber con
he chose feats imp sunder, power attack, imp power attack, two handed power attack (name?but it is x2 str not x 1.5 w/ two handed weapon) wep focus, wep specialization and ?
any ways he weilds a huge oversized two handed sword/claymore...

He destroys weapons with one swing! I mean absolutely destroys them! Oh and he has a feat that after he breaks the weapon he hacks at the weilder...he doesnt have the best ac in the world but nothing can with stand his 70, 80, 90 hit points in a round especially weapons!

Personally I dont like the idea of someone having a 50,000 sword that took weaks to make only to be broken by a meathead such as this in 1 maybe 2 blows...

in my opinion sunder is broken!

THorncrest

 

[Felix]

*snip*

Power Attack
Improved Sunder
Improved Power Attack
Two-handed Power Attack
Weapon Focus
Weapon Spec
Exotic Weapon Prof: Overly large sword
Feat that allows him to hack at the wielder when he sunders.

8 feats, eh?

And I imagine that with uber (only one "b") STR and uber CON, he'll have a level adjustment, eh? Meaning that he'll have less HP than a human fighter of his ECL, right? Meaning that when the party archer plugs this lumbering mistake full of arrows as he's charging up to sunder, he'll die pretty quickly, right? That's a nice terrible one-trick pony you have there.