D&D 5E Super Deadly 5E?

[Oofta]

Well, experiences differ, but in 1E (which I mostly played) until your own party got a 9th level cleric or were lucky enough to find one whose service they could employ, raising was rare. And, with the Resurrection Survival check, even when you tried it didn't always succeed (and then, short of a Wish, death WAS final.)



Easy enough to say, impossible to prove.

• Walks off with the rest of the party there to kill it? It won't get far.

A giant has a speed of 40 ft. If it double moves, not many parties can keep up. Or he feeds bits to his pet dire wolf who has a speed of 50.

• Goo is still part of the body, so even if Raise dead won't work--Reincarnate will.

Goo is not "a body part" ... it's goo. At least that would be my ruling.

• Limbs are no issue with Reincarnate.
• Eating the corpse? A last meal for it then? Again, Reincarnate solves that unless the body is swallowed whole and instantly dissolves.

Assuming you have a druid handy. They're quite rare in my world. Oh, and good luck if you're reincarnated as an orc. Most people will have a shoot first ask questions later attitude in my world.

• By the time you reach 5th level, 300 gp is pretty much pocket change for most tables. So, not an issue unless your characters are paupers.

In my campaign the group is 6th level, they'll have to pool resources to get together 300 GP (for some reason they spend a lot on healing potions). But that's not the point - how many diamonds are available? Are they even available in the region? Even if you have a supplier, how many do they have in stock?

Diamonds are common (and expensive) now because of advertising and modern cutting techniques, they were not widely used in medieval Europe for example [1].

• Again, the goal is not to just ban stuff. We house-ruled it to make it not automatic, and that will help at middle levels, but solves nothing at higher levels. Sure, argue that "most" tables don't go past level 10 or whatever, but we are (currently 12-13th).

House rules are part of the game and making it fit what you and your players want. In any case, IMHO it's just one option of many.

So, none of those are really solutions IMO, but I suppose if they work in your game, cool.

I admit it's been too long since I played 1E to remember how common raise dead was. We may have "cheated" if it ever came up.

I do remember my half elf getting an offer of reincarnate in 2E at 2nd or 3rd level. The ease of being brought back from the dead was one of the reasons I instituted my house rule of what happens to your spirit after you die.

So I will correct my statement. At higher levels it hasn't been an issue for several editions unless you're still playing that 70s version of the game.

 

[dave2008]

We tried this and didn't like it.
It resulted in that some characters had 2 or 3 levels of exhaustion almost all the time - not fun.

For us the problem was that characters at zero hp, and thus dying, could jump up and fight again as soon they got 1 hp back.
Our solution: if you are at zero hp and get at least 1 hp back you gain consciousness, but are incapacitated.
By the end of each of your turns you roll a DC10 save without ability modifier (same as death save) to get rid of the incapacitated condition.
Some people think that it's ridiculus that you're incapcitated after magical healing - magic should cure such things. If so, then explain why a person raised from the dead has -4 on all attack rolls, saves, and ability checks for a whole day.
This is similar: isn't it natural that you gasping for breath an round or two if you wake up from dying?
Others think that the incapacitation save should be a CON save, but I think it still has with death to do and thus is beyond the characters abilities.

Otherwise I think the biggest problem is the death threshold.
In ODD74 and BDnD you died at 0 hp.
In ADnD you died at 0 hp, with an optional rule of dying at -3.
In ADnD2E you died at 0 hp, with an optional rule of dying at -10.
In DnD3E you died at -10.
In DnD4 and 5 you die at minus your maximum hp.

Simply change the rule: you die if the remaining hp is max hp at level 1 + level.
Example: a level 1 fighter with CON 14 dies at HD + CON + level = 10 + 2 + 1 = 13 hp, and when he gain a level it's 14 hp, etc.

Die at 0, problem solved. It works for us at least.

 

[DND_Reborn]

A giant has a speed of 40 ft. If it double moves, not many parties can keep up. Or he feeds bits to his pet dire wolf who has a speed of 50.

With rogues or monks, and many spells such as slow and cantrips that reduce speed by 10, it isn't hard to keep up. And the rest of the party already killed the dire wolf (a nice addition by the way : ) ).

Goo is not "a body part" ... it's goo. At least that would be my ruling.

Fair enough, but one round wouldn't be enough to pound it into goo, at least that would be my ruling.

Assuming you have a druid handy. They're quite rare in my world. Oh, and good luck if you're reincarnated as an orc. Most people will have a shoot first ask questions later attitude in my world.

In my campaign the group is 6th level, they'll have to pool resources to get together 300 GP (for some reason they spend a lot on healing potions). But that's not the point - how many diamonds are available? Are they even available in the region? Even if you have a supplier, how many do they have in stock?

Diamonds are common (and expensive) now because of advertising and modern cutting techniques, they were not widely used in medieval Europe for example [1].

House rules are part of the game and making it fit what you and your players want. In any case, IMHO it's just one option of many.

Well, as we both know house-rules are house-rules and your campaign world will of course be different from everyone else's. If druids are "quite rare", diamond dust (a common enough spell component) hard to come by, etc. the norm for you, it is not the norm IME.

I admit it's been too long since I played 1E to remember how common raise dead was. We may have "cheated" if it ever came up.

I do remember my half elf getting an offer of reincarnate in 2E at 2nd or 3rd level. The ease of being brought back from the dead was one of the reasons I instituted my house rule of what happens to your spirit after you die.

So I will correct my statement. At higher levels it hasn't been an issue for several editions unless you're still playing that 70s version of the game.

LOL what can we say, we probably all "cheated" in one way or another back then.

 

[dave2008]

This isn't about "losing" or trying to ruin their lives. It is about how 5E has made the game in its designed default state too easy to survive all in all because even death is rarely permanent, and knowing that PCs rarely get that "scared" feeling from an encounter unless you throw really crazy stuff at them.

We tried grittier rest-periods, etc. and as you know that really solves nothing. I don't want to just blanket remove healing or recovering from death as it removes an element from the game. Returning to things such as a Resurrection Survival Check, etc. is fine. We already house-ruled Revivify because, frankly for 3rd level, it is OP.

Let's put it this way. If a character has 5 hp left, and is facing a hill giant who is uninjured, but this character knows the rest of the party is on the way, I don't want him to think: "Well, I can fight on as usual, do some damage, and when I go down, they can kill the giant in 10 rounds and revivify me so I don't need to worry about survival." Now, even when the giant takes that one character out, and the others have arrived to kill him, having him kill the downed character does no good because the PCs will bring him back. The result: players generally don't care if their characters die IME because rarely is it permanent.

So I am confused. Do you want solutions or are just complaining about the "default" of 5e. It doesn't sound like you really want to change anything.

We play 0=dead, that solves one issue of the fear the giant at 5 HP. We also have no dedicated healer. That solves the other issue (no bringing them back). There are of course lots of ways to achieve what you want. Your choices are really simple but you don't seem to want to make them. So what do you really want?

Do you want to solve the issue for your group, or just moan about the "default." Either is fine, but from your post I am not really sure what your goal is. If you don't want to change the RAW, then we can't help you, except to listen to your venting I guess.

 

[dave2008]

All right, here are some options for your "Super Deadly 5e:

1. Death at 0 HP (if you want "Super Deadly" that is the only way to go IMO).
2. Raise Dead options:

• Increase level of all reviving from the dead options by 2 levels (or what ever works for you)
• Make casting such spells give the caster a level (or more) of exhaustion
• Make casting such spells cost the target (or caster or both) HD equal to the spell level
• Ban these type of spells, only special places / items (fountain of youth, unicorn horn) can raise dead. You've got to quest to bring them back (much more typical fantasy than D&D standard)

Now, just make your choice.

 

[DND_Reborn]

So I am confused. Do you want solutions or are just complaining about the "default" of 5e. It doesn't sound like you really want to change anything.

We play 0=dead, that solves one issue of the fear the giant at 5 HP. We also have no dedicated healer. That solves the other issue (no bringing them back). There are of course lots of ways to achieve what you want. Your choices are really simple but you don't seem to want to make them. So what do you really want?

Do you want to solve the issue for your group, or just moan about the "default." Either is fine, but from your post I am not really sure what your goal is. If you don't want to change the RAW, then we can't help you, except to listen to your venting I guess.

Sorry, if I've been unclear. Your situation (no dedicated healer) seems a bit uncommon. But are there no NPC's to restore them? I realize campaigns defer, so that could be the case, but IME most games have some form of healing/raising eventually (it is even suggested IIRC in 1E).

I am fine with house-rules of course. In the OP I mention we impose a level of exhaustion when reaching 0 HP.

To be more explicit my goals are:

Make going to 0 hp more penalizing, so even if PCs don't fear death, they will fear the consequences.
Make death have a chance of being permanent when it happens so there is always a risk the PC can't come back.

There are lots of ways to do them both, and I am fishing for new ideas.

 

[Minigiant]

In most of my settings there aren't NPC casters with Resurrection available, and even that won't work when the dragon eats the bodies, as happened to a couple PCs in my Red Hand of Doom campaign (highest NPC Cleric level: 8). Only my highest magic setting (Golarion) features high level PCs & NPCs who can cast Resurrection. That campaign (Runelords of the Shattered Star) is the only one from half a dozen or so with routine bringing back of dead PCs, and they still feel challenged since they face super-powerful foes. My Primeval Thule campaign has no Raise Dead, but a very low PC mortality rate since they play smart, the only deaths have been with first-session & drop-in players (drained by Shadows, carried off by a Nightgaunt). My Stonehell campaign saw a fair number of perma-deaths among careless PCs (eg drained by a Wraith, overwhelmed by zombies or orcs) - usually when the rest of the party fled.

Well that is the differences of the settings.

I usually go for the retired adventurer route. There are adventurers in my world and and those that survive they retire 50% at level 10. There is one retired member of every class in every kingdom sized area and half of them make it to 10 before retiring. So there is 1.5 people who can cast Raise Dead per 2 million folk. You gotta find them though.

 

[dave2008]

Sorry, if I've been unclear. Your situation (no dedicated healer) seems a bit uncommon. But are there no NPC's to restore them? I realize campaigns defer, so that could be the case, but IME most games have some form of healing/raising eventually (it is even suggested IIRC in 1E).

What is common or uncommon is irrelevant IMO, what matters it what exist at your table.

In my campaign, no there is no raising dead magic where the group came from or where they have explored. There are rumors that mighty empires of the past had such magic, but it doesn't exist currently. Mostly people think it is a fairy tale. If the PCs ever travel the dragon kingdoms (across the ocean), they will find that the dragon-gods still have such power. But generally, even if they had a dedicated healer, those spells are off the list. In my campaign, if you die - your dead (or we quest to find a way to bring you back).

I am fine with house-rules of course. In the OP I mention we impose a level of exhaustion when reaching 0 HP.

To be more explicit my goals are:

Make going to 0 hp more penalizing, so even if PCs don't fear death, they will fear the consequences.
Make death have a chance of being permanent when it happens so there is always a risk the PC can't come back.

There are lots of ways to do them both, and I am fishing for new ideas.

Yep, good luck - there are lots of good ideas here.

I just thought of another idea, I'll post separately.

 

[Oofta]

So @dnd4vr what I'm hearing is that you don't want solutions, you just want to complain. For example, diamond dust may be available because for some reason it's a spell component but cut diamonds weren't popular until the DeBeer's started a big add campaign in the 1940s. Revivify requires actual diamonds, not dust.

I've made being raised from the dead more than just a spell for every edition since 2E. Getting raised requires a trip to Nifleheim and there's a good chance that a person that has been raised will come back with an uninvited guest.

Since you don't seem to want to consider alternatives, I don't see a point. Have a good one!

 

[Minigiant]

Also.

RaiseDead is a 5th level spell.