Super skilled versus Daxamite (aka Karate Kid vs. Mon-El)

[Toj]

Both these characters are from Legion of Superheroes. (DC Comics)

Karate Kid is a normal human who has studied and mastered nearly every martial art on earth, as well as some combat styles from other planets. With this he has his own form of super-karate.

Mon-El is basically the same thing as a Kryptionian (i.e. Superman)

Karate Kid has bested Daxamites in combat, meaning a normal human with lots and lots of skill has taken on someone like Superman.

Some other feats Karate Kid has done are:
Cracked through the hull of the Khund flagship.
Stopped a runaway sport-speedster with one blow.
Cracked through the powerful, six-inch Durlamite gates of the Metroplois Jail.
Damaged tanks with a two-handed chop.
Kicked away an air car from the path of a falling boulder.

Ok, I am trying to brainstorm here on how a normal human can best a Daxamite.

The main problems I am encountering are:
Enough power to get passed the invulnerability.
Enough speed/accuracy to his someone with superspeed.

Any thoughts on how this can be accomplished. I am assuming of course Karate Kid must be really really epic level, so that means he has access to epic level feats.

 

[Churchill]

Classic dilemma

You've encountered one of the main problems in replicating comic books in a game...

The heroes can do whatever the writer needs them to do. Comic books are pretty free form in how a character's powers and abilities are defined (though that's not as true today as it was 10 to 20 years ago), and they would vary depending on the "needs" of the story.

That just doesn't work in a game where every aspect of the character needs to be spelled out in game terms.

It's the same kinda question as, "Who would win in a fight: Batman or Superman?" And the answer to that, in the comics, is... whoever the writer wants to win.

(darn typos)

 

[Morrus]

Whatever the comic-book jusitification for his abilities are, in mechanics terms you just have to accept that this guy has superpowers. Describe them as skill or whatever, but the thing he can do are superhuman things.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

Karate Kid is a normal human

...

Damaged tanks with a two-handed chop.
Kicked away an air car from the path of a falling boulder.

A normal human who damaged a tank with a Karate Shop?

Face it, he's got superpowers including superstrenght. It doesn't matter which super hero setting you use. Call it chi or whatever tickles your fancy but he's got it.

''Normal Humans'' don't punch through 3 inches of steel for several reasons starting with the fragility of bones. I'm just saying that in case an impressionable 14 year old who just passed his yellow belt wants to attempt it. Hey, some morons did try to fly from the rough or went into the sewers looking for ninja turtles!

 

[Toj]

So you guys don't think someone high enough level, with certain feats, could do these 'superhuman' things?

I thought that people above level 20 were suppose to be 'superhuman' and were capable of things like this...

 

[Voneth]

So you guys don't think someone high enough level, with certain feats, could do these 'superhuman' things?

I thought that people above level 20 were suppose to be 'superhuman' and were capable of things like this...

Welcome to the problem of "leveling" in DND, a lack of a consistant power level in the game. At it's worst, DM have to create bigger and badder monsters to give the PCs a challenge.

One of the things I liked in Earthdawn was that the PC were automaticaly considered to have magic -- the difference was wheather you were a fighter who could move faster than human, a thief who could climb up glass walls, or a wizard who cast spells.

Sort of a magic knack vs. casting spells. Earthdawn had another system for regular humans and what their mundane skills levels and training times could be, which avoided the whole "shouldn't every blacksmith be a 20th level craftsman?"

DND is made for the DM to decide the limits in his game. Perhaps you could say that 20th level is the ultimate peak of human perfection in a cinematic world. Beyond 20th level, you have been promoted to superhuman and the rules no longer apply.

 

[RangerWickett]

So you guys don't think someone high enough level, with certain feats, could do these 'superhuman' things?

I thought that people above level 20 were suppose to be 'superhuman' and were capable of things like this...

Ah, but you yourself use the term 'superhuman' to describe the character's power.

So yeah, Karate Kid the martial artist knows how to channel his ki and direct his body's force to strike just the right spot, so that he deals more damage than any normal man can.

And then Superman, simply by virtue of his race, can punch and deal more damage than any normal man can.

There's no real difference, rules wise. Sure, you can try to be complex and make Karate Kid a 50th level monk so his unarmed attacks deal 3d20+20 points of damage, but he still has a 15 Strength, so he can't beat Arnold Schwarzenegger in an arm wrestling competition. Or you can use a more elegant system and just give Karate Kid super powers. You can call them whatever you want, but they function just like super powers. Heck, Batman has some mild super powers, because he is tougher than a real person should be, and it's not just because he's high level.

As a parallel, imagine two fighters -- a rapier-wielding duelist and a greatsword-using strongman. They both have Cleave and Great Cleave. They're teammates, and one day, in a fight, the duelist and the strongman are both attacked by a horde of Goblins.

The duelist gets his hit in, kills a Goblin, then uses Great Cleave, taking out 5 Goblins total. In the same round, the strongman kills a Goblin, and Great Cleaves through a total of 5 Goblins too. But they didn't do it the same way. For the strongman, a Great Cleave might literally be just ripping through 5 Goblins in a semi-circle, but for the duelist, the Great Cleave meant that he probably lashed out his blade, whipped it high, low, disemboweling one Goblin, cutting open the throat of another, beheading a third, then stabbing through the eye of a fourth, and finally withdrawing his blade, flipping it backwards and stabbing behind himself to impale the fifth Goblin in the gut.

They both used the same rules, but anyone can tell they have different fighting styles.

So just use super powers rules, and let the rules do what you want them to, rather than having them tell you what your character has to be.

 

[Moe Ronalds]

Well, if you use the "Martial Art Game" option in Deeds Not Words, then Karate Kid could beat Mon-El. The Martial Art Game option, is where everyone plays a human martial artist, and each level they gain a new super-power, to reflect some super secret ninja technique that they picked up. So it's still skill, instead of power, but mechanics-wise it's a super power.

Er... get it?

 

[Toj]

Yeah, I pretty much understand how I can do it. Basically I am going to make him extremely high level, say 40 or more, and then give him a template for "Intensive Training", which will give him more feats, skills, and ability score bonuses, etc... which will increase his ECL.