supers d20

Shard O'Glase

First Post
OK hero system is my supers game of choice as of this time. i am willing to change though. 3 questions arise though

What d20 supers games are out?

what are there pros and cons?


Which one do you feel comes closest to heor systems flexibility in character creation?
 

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Hiya Shard :)

As the author of the upcoming d20 Supers game Vigilance, and as a long time Hero fan and Gm myself, I thought I'd take a crack at this one.

I have always been a fan of Hero's character generation system. And I don't think any d20 game offers quite that range of options as a beginning character.

However, I think this is a good thing. When you make a character, you dont have much of a feel for him or the campaign.

By the time a d20 character hits 6th to 8th level, I feel the d20 system comes into its own. I think that the d20 system with its range of Powers, feats, multiclassing, and skills, offers as much variety in character from the mid levels on as the Hero system.

I thought for a long time that Hero would forever reign as the best supers system. I know think that d20 is as good, if not better.
 

I have or have read most of the D20 based supers games out there, and I feel that Deeds Not Words is the most versatile out there. The only one that I have not read completly is Four Color to Fantasy, but I didn't like the way it was presented in the Asgard 'zine article, so I prolly won't pick it up.

The Pro's:

-Full compatibility with the core D20 rules

-Scalable character creation through use of an 'Experience Tithe' system, which boils down to:

Powers cost XP's.
Levels cost XP's (typical D20).
Half of all XP's goes to Tithe and half goes to levelling.
Causes slower level progression for characters with more powers, and faster progression for those with no powers.
Balances pretty well, although I have not actually seen it in play yet (still getting roup together)

-Great power list

-over 300 pages for $10!

Many more, just too tired to think straight right now

The Con's:

-It is still level based, which I like, but I know many die-hard Hero fans do not like levels.

-Umm.... can't think of any others

I, personally, and totally sold on DNW as THE D20 supers sytem.
 

I'll post a full reply this Friday, once I've had a chance to finish reading DNW and Vigilance. Then I will present a critique of the both of them. I cannot review Four-Color to Fantasy without bias, but before I compare and contrast the pdf competition, I'll describe FCTF, in my next post.
 
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Four-Color to Fantasy, published by Natural 20 Press, was designed with two goals.

1. To create a rules supplement that would add super-powers to any existing D20 game, be that Spycraft, D&D, D20 Modern, or DragonStar.

2. To be effect-based (and not appearance-based) in regard to the powers.


A third, less important goal was to make sure that with just the core D&D rulebooks and FCTF, you could play in a modern-day game, as Horacio has been doing with his Golden Apple Rescue Squad storyhour.

Since practically all D20 games so far use levels, we decided to simply introduce a new class that could provide super powers the same way that a sorcerer gains spells. Called the Hero, this class goes from 1st level to 20th level like all the core classes. All the game master needs to do is decide a power level for the group, and you design your character with the appropriate number of Hero levels.

Of course, just because the class uses levels doesn't mean that you can automatically just level-up in it. The Hero class is much like a powerful race that provides a level adjustment. The default assumption is that the GM will just pick a level, and everyone will stay at that level, never increasing their superpowers (though they can still level up in other classes). However, if the GM lets you, you can go up levels in Hero, assuming your explanation for your power increase is approved by the GM.

We also provide a small appendix for modern-day skills and technology, and present a wholly skill-based class, the Specialist (imagine a rogue with less combat ability and no sneak attack, but with more ways to use their skills in cunning ways).

Basically, by using levels, and making sure the Hero class is balanced with the core d20 classes, it ensures that game masters are able to properly gauge how difficult an encounter will be for the party. Also, it means that you can use most other WotC and 3rd-party rules supplements in your supers game.

Why would you want to use D&D rules (which are supposedly made for fantasy) in your modern superhero game, you ask? Well, consider the following character types. We'll assume your top-name heroes are 20th level or so (though some may go higher).

Spiderman: He starts off as a 1st level Specialist (photojournalist-scientist). Then, when he gets bitten by the spider, he gains 10 levels of Hero. Occasionally in the comics his super powers will get a little stronger, but not by much. However, as he does his superhero stuff, he slowly gains levels as both Specialist and Fighter. Eventually, he might take a level or two of the Gadgeteer prestige class from FCTF.

His powers would consist of super strength, super agility, flight (with a few special restrictions to simulate web-swinging), danger sense, and entangle (to represent his webs). As he gained levels, he could use his new Hero Points to purchase some of the tricks he learned, like using webbing to make shields, or gaining gadgets like tracking devices.

Eventually, at around the current day, Peter Parker would probably be a Specialist 3/Fighter 4/Gadgeteer 2/Hero 11.

Superman: Everyone knows his powers, and he'd probably have epic levels of Hero, plus a few in Specialist (journalist), and maybe a few in Fighter in his later years. Making high-level foes to challenge him in one-on-one combat would be tough, but thanks to the Monster Manual and the Epic-Level Handbook, you have ready-made alien invaders, ancient evils, and huge monsters.

Batman: When D20 Modern comes out, you'll want to give him about 3 levels each of Strong, Fast, Tough, Smart, Dedicated, and Charismatic Hero. Or, if you don't want to buy D20 Modern, just make him a Specialist (entrepeneur) 2/Fighter 6/Rogue 3/Hero 3, and give him 3 levels each of the FCTF prestige classes Detective and Menacing Vigilante. You may ask why Batman has Hero levels when he doesn't have any super powers. However, he does have mild super strength and mild super agility. It's nothing compared to Superman, but he probably didn't roll all those 18s.

As other examples, Dr. Strange probably has a few levels of Mongoose's Demonologist class (or he might just be a sorcerer), DareDevil might benefit from some combat feats in Path of the Sword, and Fathom could definitely use the underwater combat rules in the various D20 ocean and sea books. Heck, half of the people from Image are practically fantasy characters anyway, and we know danged well that Lara Croft could definitely make use of the Dungeon Delver in Song & Silence.

FCTF can be used with ease with pretty much any d20 rule system you want, and it doesn't try to codify every superhero into a set of classes like Aquatic Warrior or Telepath. The power system is flexible without focusing on minutiae, and for the few exotic powers that we might have missed, creating new ones is easy. Plus, not to be petty, but visuals do matter to some people, and I'm confident that Four-Color to Fantasy has, overall, the highest quality visual layout of all the books presented so far.

However, I do suggest that you also take a look at Mutants & Masterminds (from Green Ronin, out in a few months). It's not as compatible with core D20 rules as FCTF, but it goes for a much more streamlined type of play, with less dice rolling that might suit your tastes.
 

Thanks for the plug, Ranger Wickett :)

Well, the first non-playtester GM of FCTF (Morrus sent me a pre-release copy for my first session when the game was delayed a week ;) Thanks again, Morrus!), I can testify that everything RW said is true.

FCTF is the more generic d20 supers game available. I have them all. Foundation (horribly bad!), DNW (I rather like it, but I dislike the concept of classes for heroes, I prefer the generic FCTF approach where a generic 'hero' class give power points and you spend it as you want), Vigilance (I have the pdf, and I like it, but it has the same "problem" than DNW), etc.

A real bonus from FCTF is that you can mismatch it with any other d20 product. A 8th level hero can join a traditional 8th level D&D party and keep the game balance. DNW and Vigilance work very well on themselves, but thay admit that you cannot mix them easily with traditional d20 classes because game balance is not preserved.

So, if you want to see how does it work, go to my Story Hour (link at my signature or at RW's post). If you do it, please, drop a comment ;)
 

Howdy Shard--

Speakin' for *Deeds Not Words*... you'd probably find that its character creation, while fairly broad and flexible, is nowhere near as freeform as Hero's, and not yet even as fairly broad and flexible as it might be (it's a pleasant start, but I have improvements and expansion in mind for the upcoming revision 1.1).

As Horacio pointed out, DNW is a class-based d20 game, with 15 super-heroic classes that are, by all reports, fun and benefit-packed, but they are classes nonetheless, and that's not everyone's cup of tea.

*Deeds Not Words* is a happy little self-serving corner of the d20 universe; it maintains every familiar element of fantasy d20 without adhering to fantasy d20's well-established balance structure. It was designed to lift certain restrictions and provide a much looser d20 experience for players. If you want to build a 1st level character with a +70 to his Jump skill or the ability to fly to the moon at will, you can do so very easily.

DNW would not work terribly well with the classes in the D&D3 PHB, altough many of its elements can be borrowed and fit back into fantasy d20, DNW doesn't slide neatly into place with D&D3 and its kin. FC2F is the game you want if you're looking for fidelity to the D&D3 standard, and ease of use with that standard. What they say is true... using it, you could send Spider-Man to Faerun as easily as you could lift characters from Faerun and dump them in Spider-Man's lap. :)

For more information on DNW, check out my website:

http://www.allforart.com/cryptosnarkgames

Or check out the DNW discussion list, and feel free to ask questions:

http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/deedsnotwordsd20

Cheers and best,

SL
 

Scott, your answer shows you're a true gentleman.

And I want to clarify my last post. I'm glad I bought DNW, it's a wonderful game. But I don't like a class-based structure for *my* supers game and I wanted something that I could easily mix with standard d20 (D&D, Spycraft, Dragonstar), so my game of choice is FCTF.

I'm not implying that DNW is a bad game, it's a very good one, but not the game I searched for. FCTF is a wonderful true d20 superhero toolkit that you can use in any d20 game without a second thought.
 

"FCTF is the more generic d20 supers game available. I have them all. Foundation (horribly bad!), DNW (I rather like it, but I dislike the concept of classes for heroes, I prefer the generic FCTF approach where a generic 'hero' class give power points and you spend it as you want), Vigilance (I have the pdf, and I like it, but it has the same "problem" than DNW), etc.
And I want to clarify my last post. I'm glad I bought DNW, it's a wonderful game. But I don't like a class-based structure for *my* supers game and I wanted something that I could easily mix with standard d20 (D&D, Spycraft, Dragonstar), so my game of choice is FCTF."

??? Dragonstar, Spycraft and D&D are not class based? There's no penalty to mutliclassing in DNW, you can pickup levels to make your hero the way you want. Batman would be a Sleuth/Martial Artist/Vigilante for example. Granted some classes or powers would be too powerful for other d20 games but some of the classes could be dropped in without any problems.
 

FTracer said:
??? Dragonstar, Spycraft and D&D are not class based? There's no penalty to mutliclassing in DNW, you can pickup levels to make your hero the way you want. Batman would be a Sleuth/Martial Artist/Vigilante for example. Granted some classes or powers would be too powerful for other d20 games but some of the classes could be dropped in without any problems.

Man, please, read my posts before answering angrily about them, O.K.? Even DNW's creator agreed with me.

a) I don't like classes in a supers game. I didn't said anything more, anything less.

b) DNW and Vigilance doesn't keep the balance with standard d20 classes. DNW's creator gently confirmed it in his post, Vililance author says it in the pdf.

c) Since I don't like classes in supers game and I like mix my supers with other d20 stuff I have, my game of choice is FCTF. DNW's authour agreed with this too.

So please, relax...
 

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