Surging Flame vs Lasting Frost

[BobTheNob]

Lasting frost has been "Fairly" contraversial since inception, but Im not going to get into that (and please dont anyone else). I was just comparing these two feats. Now, I know one one heroic and one is paragon, but I would like to put that aside as well.

At the end of the day on a comparison basis, Surging flame looks really weak. It adds five IF the target has fire resist, whereas lasting frost just gives 5 cold vulnrability. Meaning one gets 5 situatutionaly (and thats a situation which is detramental, i.e. your probably tempted to use non fire spells instead) whereas lasting frost give 5 always.

That is unless...does imposing vulnrability on a target actually decrease resistance? If I was to think of it naturally, my answer would be "yes", but if I was to analyse it in light of this situation (and do some guesswork at designner intent) my answer would be "no".

Example. Bunch of Frost archons (resist 20 cold) cannot (in my view) be made vulnrable to cold, but can vulnrability decrease the resitance? Im not so sure it works that way. If we were to hit them with something that said "reduces resistance by X" (for instance a frost sorceror) I would agree, but I would imagine that a creature that has frost resistance simply cannot have vuln placed on them.

Does anyone know of a line in a book somewhere (or an official response from WOTC) that clarifies this point?

 

[Dalzig]

MM1 FAQ

7. If a creature has both resistance and vulnerability to a single type of damage, like cold, which one do you apply first?

Both the resistance and the vulnerability are applied and one can not negate the other.

 

[abyssaldeath]

There is nothing that says you can't be vulnerable and have resistance. They two would basically cancel each other out to a point. I remember WotC tailking about it at some point, but I can't seem to find it.

Edit: Doh, why didn't I check the MM FAQ.

 

[Saeviomagy]

At the end of the day on a comparison basis, Surging flame looks really weak. It adds five IF the target has fire resist, whereas lasting frost just gives 5 cold vulnrability. Meaning one gets 5 situatutionaly (and thats a situation which is detramental, i.e. your probably tempted to use non fire spells instead) whereas lasting frost give 5 always.

Yup, surging flame sucks, and you'd have to be an idiot to ever use it UNLESS you had a plenitude of attacks that have two elements that include fire (ie fire + frost) AND a way of giving fire resist to your foes that had a minimal opportunity cost.

Basically: either you don't know whether the foes you face will have fire resistance, so the feat isn't worth having, OR you know that your foes will have fire resistance and you're stupid for having fire-dealing powers.

 

[BobTheNob]

MM1 FAQ

I have read and re-read that. Its weird, how can you apply by vuln and res and NOT have them cancel each other? Now Im just confused!

 

[Victim]

I have read and re-read that. Its weird, how can you apply by vuln and res and NOT have them cancel each other? Now Im just confused!

In practice, they do numerically cancel. A creature with Cold Resist 5 and Cold Vulnerable 5 taking Cold damage will be receiving X + 5 - 5: which works out to X. However, the creature still has both the resistance and the vulnerability even though the numbers cancel out. You don't ignore them both (or just the lesser one while diminishing the larger one) because other things can key off those traits. So someone with Wintertouched could still get combat advantage, etc.

 

[Stalker0]

Surging flame is the weaker cousin of the epic feat that drops fire res by 20. Fire resistance is one fo the more common resistances so it helps with that. But otherwise, not a big fan.

 

[Plane Sailing]

7. If a creature has both resistance and vulnerability to a single type of damage, like cold, which one do you apply first?

Both the resistance and the vulnerability are applied and one can not negate the other.

You'd think someone writing a FAQ entry would check for elementary errors, wouldn't you?

It would be fine if they left off the last clause of the last sentence which is just nonsense. Both the resistance and the vulnerability are applied (and thus one can cancel out the other).

 

[Thyrwyn]

The point of the last clause it that even if they numerically counteract each other, the creature continues to have both traits. As Victim pointed out, other powers and effects may still trigger off of those effects.

As for Surging flame "sucking", Allow me to disagree - it is the next feat my 4th lvl tiefling wizard plans to pick up (She currently has Implement Expertise (Tome), Arcane Fire, and Wintertouched). She has focused on AoE Fire and Cold powers Armed with her Book of Undeniable Fire +1, Surging Flame will allow her to reduce any creatures Fire Resistance by 10, add another 5 pts of damage, and make it/them vulnerable to Cold - which sets it up for a Cold attack next turn.

Her focus on Fire effects is risky - many creatures resist it. Surging Flame helps her remain effective in the face of such foes. It keeps half of her powers - and her Scorching Burst at-will - from becoming useless against them.

Her motto is "MY fire is better . . ."

 

[BobTheNob]

The point of the last clause it that even if they numerically counteract each other, the creature continues to have both traits. As Victim pointed out, other powers and effects may still trigger off of those effects.

As for Surging flame "sucking", Allow me to disagree - it is the next feat my 4th lvl tiefling wizard plans to pick up (She currently has Implement Expertise (Tome), Arcane Fire, and Wintertouched). She has focused on AoE Fire and Cold powers Armed with her Book of Undeniable Fire +1, Surging Flame will allow her to reduce any creatures Fire Resistance by 10, add another 5 pts of damage, and make it/them vulnerable to Cold - which sets it up for a Cold attack next turn.

Her focus on Fire effects is risky - many creatures resist it. Surging Flame helps her remain effective in the face of such foes. It keeps half of her powers - and her Scorching Burst at-will - from becoming useless against them.

Her motto is "MY fire is better . . ."

However, lets say that you come up against something with a fire resist of 10. The tome reduces their resistance to zero, so now they dont have resistance any more! Does Surging Flame now apply?