D&D 5E Surprise and Sneak Attack

[Flamestrike]

I think the surprise rolls really show their weakness when a new combatant that nobody is aware of joins a battle a few rounds in. Let's say, for the sake of argument, an invisible and silent assassin joins a fight between Our Heroes (the pcs) and an oni and its ogre minions on round 3. I'm curious- how do y'all handle that? Insert a "surprise round" during which only the newcomer gets to act mid-combat? Just have it join the fight with no surprise? Something else?

EDITED to stipulate that the assassin is invisible and silent.

The Heroes are not surprised. They're literally in a fight with an Oni and its minions.

Surprised means 'caught with your pants down and unaware of any threats'. The heroes are aware of threats; their guard is up (thanks to the Oni and crew).

The invisible assassin gets advantage (invsible and hidden) but no auto-crit.

 

[shadowoflameth]

Sage advice isn't houserule. It outlines Official Rulings.

The rule that until your turn in initiative order comes up you cannot use reactions does not say 'because surprise ends' and it does not say that your turn coming up ends surprise. I keep seeing people assume that it is so, but there is no statement RAW that this assumption is a rule. Your turn coming up does not cause you to notice anything that you did not before.

 

[Maxperson]

The rule that until your turn in initiative order comes up you cannot use reactions does not say 'because surprise ends' and it does not say that your turn coming up ends surprise. I keep seeing people assume that it is so, but there is no statement RAW that this assumption is a rule. Your turn coming up does not cause you to notice anything that you did not before.

The Sage Advice explains the rule with more clarity. It states that the reason is absolutely because surprise ends. The rule itself just incredibly strongly implies that it's because surprise ends.

And you are correct. You do not notice anything you did not notice before, because you noticed the threat as soon as it surprised you and you rolled initiative.

 

[Hriston]

Your turn coming up does not cause you to notice anything that you did not before.

You keep saying this as if it necessarily follows from Surprise ending at the end of your turn. It doesn’t. Surprise and being unaware of hidden threats are not the same thing.

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

The PHB Pg. 189 which describes surprise does not support the idea that your turn coming up in initiative ends being surprised.

It doesn't support any other idea either, which is why Sage dvice clarified it.

In your game, shadowoflameth, when does a combatant stop being surprised? What rules justification do you use for your ruling?

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

A lot of this comes down to why initiative is being rolled in the first place?

The unseen assassin and their target exist = no combat.
The unseen assassin loads and aims their crossbow = no combat.
The unseen assassin shoots their crossbow = combat!

Only when combat starts does the question of initiative need answering, and the narrative falls into place making sense:

Bolt is flying, target was surprised but recovers wits, albeit too late to immediately do anything; Assassin lost optimal chance due to split second mis-timing, but might still pull something off.

Narrative problems seem to occur when players treat initiative as occurring before the combat has even started, rather than as a necessary procedure to determine turn order in a turn-based game.

Bottom line to me, players should boost their initiative score if they want their Assassin to assassinate regularly - and death strike. Stealth problems disappear with expertise and reliable talent, and attack rolls enjoy advantage. Dex20, Alert feat, plus Weapon of Warning give average initiative 20, huge!

Honestly, I think there might be Assassin players opting for things like SS at the expense of boosting initiative. Dex16 by itself is not going to give you great reliability with Assassinate, which as it stands is not automatic due to the surprise clause.

DMs can help out a little by splitting monsters into groups with different initiative scores. That way at least the player has more chance of finding a valid target for Assassinate.

 

[Maxperson]

A lot of this comes down to why initiative is being rolled in the first place?

The unseen assassin and their target exist = no combat.
The unseen assassin loads and aims their crossbow = no combat.
The unseen assassin shoots their crossbow = combat!

That last should be, "The unseen assassin intends to shoot their crossbow." Combat starts when initiative happens and initiative happens before the shot is fired.

Bolt is flying, target was surprised but recovers wits, albeit too late to immediately do anything; Assassin lost optimal chance due to split second mis-timing, but might still pull something off.

The bolt is not flying until the assassin's initiative comes up, which can be after a surprised target with a higher initiative recovers and can now react.

Narrative problems seem to occur when players treat initiative as occurring before the combat has even started, rather than as a necessary procedure to determine turn order in a turn-based game.

There is no inherent narrative problem. The assassin has to move to aim or perhaps load the crossbow, which can and does alert the target to the danger. The narrative problem only comes up if a DM decides not to run combat the way it's written and intended, and allows the attack to happen before initiative is rolled.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

I think there needs to be a commitment to action to start combat. It can be as general as 'I attack', but I personally require an action statement.

In our hidden Assassin example, assuming their stealth has beaten everyone's PP, we can't narrate their personal actions as starting combat. They're unseen. What then could be the signal? The bolt whistling through the air seems good enough to me. And if that were an NPC, that's how I'd start the combat.

Problem with an intention statement is, if you have open initiative rolls, the surprising attacker can always opt to not attack... and not attacking is fine RAW. So why did you waste everyone's time having them roll initiative? Even with hidden initiative rolls, the Assassin player can guess when they're unlikely to pull off an Assassinate. Imagine doing that with an NPC Assassin...

Require an initial action and bam, there's no take backs, it's real and characters are reacting to an event.

This all said, initiative by intention works fine when the parties are at least aware of each other.

 

[Maxperson]

I think there needs to be a commitment to action to start combat. It can be as general as 'I attack', but I personally require an action statement.

In our hidden Assassin example, assuming their stealth has beaten everyone's PP, we can't narrate their personal actions as starting combat. They're unseen. What then could be the signal? The bolt whistling through the air seems good enough to me. And if that were an NPC, that's how I'd start the combat.

That's reasonable, but it's a house rule as it alters how surprise works. For me, a rustling noise as the formerly unseen and unheard assassin moves to attack is also good enough and matches the 5e rules.

Problem with an intention statement is, if you have open initiative rolls, the surprising attacker can always opt to not attack... and not attacking is fine RAW. So why did you waste everyone's time having them roll initiative?

I didn't waste anyone's time. We have a now revealed assassin who has been caught red handed with crossbow in hand, ready to attack. He can abort his attack, but the party does not have to stand down and abort theirs in the next round where they can act.

Require an initial action and bam, there's no take backs, it's real and characters are reacting to an event.

Same with my way, but my way matches the 5e rules.

I'm not saying that your way is wrong and allowing a free surprise round before initiative makes sense. I'm just saying that you can also make sense of it without changing anything.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

Oh, I'm not resolving the crossbow attack before combat. I'm saying it's whining through the air.