D&D 5E Surprise and Sneak Attack

[giore]

You do know you are inventing mechanics here?

This is not how 5e words surprised. This is you inventing mechanics. It is invented mechanics compatible woth 5e wording, but 5e does not dictate these mechanics.

Most importsntly, 5e does not describe a "surprised status" (like prone, petrified, etc), nor does it descrive when the status ends.

5e only describes when you are surprised at the start of combat. Mapping this to a status condition with specific effects and end conditions is something you invented, not what the 5e rules say.

As it happens, your invented mechanics mostly work, but you have noticed that it makes the assassin class not work. So, maybe, don't use the mechanics you invented?

Nope, my friend.
didn't invent anything. I am well aware of how surprise works.
It took me a lot to get it, because I was too used to old school surprise rounds.
The rules never treat it as a status, of course. They just make a distinction between being surprised and no longer being surprised.
If you look around in the thread you'll see this wording has been very confusing for a large number of people.
I used the quotation marks because it's not a status, but the way it works is similar to a status and i'm more comfortable describing it that way.
A lot of games use a similar system.
It was just a metaphore. I thought It was pretty obvious.
Personally I don't like this mechanic too much, but in the end it makes sense and it works as it should.
The assassin doesn't work because of the wording of its core ability, which is extremely restrictive.
Not because I "invent mechanics"
It was actually the other way around. It worked perfectly until I realised I misunderstood the rules.

I'd really like if they fixed it the same way they fixed the beastmaster ranger. They listened to what the majority of people was saying and made attacking with the beast a bonus action instead of an action. Now it's a usable subclass, interesting but far from overpowered.
It seems that most people have opinions similar to mine ad just wish for a slight rework of the assasinate ability so it isn't triggered by a creature being surprised but by initiating combat while undetected.

Don't you agree?

 

[Dausuul]

You do know you are inventing mechanics here?

This is not how 5e words surprised. This is you inventing mechanics. It is invented mechanics compatible woth 5e wording, but 5e does not dictate these mechanics.

Most importsntly, 5e does not describe a "surprised status" (like prone, petrified, etc), nor does it descrive when the status ends.

Prone and petrified are conditions, not statuses. There is no mechanical element in D&D called "status."

Therefore, @giore's use of the word "status" is a colloquial one, referring to "the state of being surprised," and their explanation of the rules is perfectly correct.

 

[HammerMan]

I got my solution from this site (maybe this thread) and I stopped reading surprise as a mechanic and read it in common language.

I wish I could remember who said it but he/she had a campaign with a PC and multi NPC assassins' and the questions was "did you see that coming" and that allowed for an assassinate to land even in combat, but sometimes not land out of it.

We only had 1 PC assassine since then, and she was multi classed so it wasn't as big a deal.

 

[jmartkdr2]

Incidentally, the ability to be proficient in initiative was why some many were excited about UA Rabbitfolk as assassins - with Alert and Hare Trigger, you could reliably win initiative anyways.

In practice - I prefer actual surprise rounds. It's just easier to grok somehow.

 

[NotAYakk]

Prone and petrified are conditions, not statuses. There is no mechanical element in D&D called "status."

Therefore, @giore's use of the word "status" is a colloquial one, referring to "the state of being surprised," and their explanation of the rules is perfectly correct.

The 5e rules never describe when being "surprised" ends. They descrive how you can be "surprised at the start of an encouter". They then descrive some consequences. They do not describe over what period of time you are considered "surprised".

It states that you cannot act on your first turn, and cannot take reactions until after your first turn ends. It does not state "after your first turn ends, you are no longer considered surprised".

5e leaves that unclear.

You are free to decide that the assassin's auto-crit feature ends whenever you want. But don't blame the 5e rules if you decide it only works if you win initiative, because they do not say that.

If you take the plain English meaning and as "combat begins, assassin is hidden, they started combat surprised, and they have seen nothing to indicate combat has begun; but they won initiative. If the assassin attacks, are they attacking a surprised target?" then the identified problem evaporates. Of course the creature attacked is surprised.

 

[ad_hoc]

It's a group adventuring game.

Assassin just doesn't work regardless of mechanics for what people want from the archetype.

It's bad that it is in the game because a player will see it and think they can have a certain kind of character. Then they start playing and find out they're going to be travelling around with other characters, usually in dungeons and the wilderness, and not really be an assassin.

The mechanics work fine, it's just that there is no room in the game for an actual assassin.

 

[ad_hoc]

The 5e rules never describe when being "surprised" ends. They descrive how you can be "surprised at the start of an encouter". They then descrive some consequences. They do not describe over what period of time you are considered "surprised".

It states that you cannot act on your first turn, and cannot take reactions until after your first turn ends. It does not state "after your first turn ends, you are no longer considered surprised".

5e leaves that unclear.

You are free to decide that the assassin's auto-crit feature ends whenever you want. But don't blame the 5e rules if you decide it only works if you win initiative, because they do not say that.

If you take the plain English meaning and as "combat begins, assassin is hidden, they started combat surprised, and they have seen nothing to indicate combat has begun; but they won initiative. If the assassin attacks, are they attacking a surprised target?" then the identified problem evaporates. Of course the creature attacked is surprised.

Either surprise ends when its effects end or it never ends.

One is a reasonable way to play the other is not.

A character who won initiative can take reactions which means they can do things like cast Shield or use Deflect Arrows against the Assassin's attack. If they can do those things it stands to reason that they can move enough to disrupt the killing blow the Assassin was intending.

 

[NotAYakk]

[For whatever reason, the text I quoted was deleted from my post, making my post out of context. Deleting out of context post]

 

[ad_hoc]

Again, you can invent whatever rules you want here, because 5e is not clear here.

Feel free to invent that rule, in which case accept it makes the assassin subclass worse. Just don't blame the rules of the game because rules you invent cause problems.

Note that the rules you have invented have zero impact on 5e play except on the assassin class.

It isn't an invention.

It's like saying that a prone character is always prone unless an ability or action specifically states that it removes the prone condition. Even if the character is standing if nothing specifically stated that the prone condition ended then it would continue to apply unless the table "invents a rule" ending the condition.

If the effects of something end then that state has ended.

Otherwise if a character is surprised once in their life they are always surprised. It makes no sense.

The core of the Assassin's ability is to gain advantage on winning initiative. The auto crit is an add-on bonus in specific scenarios. It wouldn't be fun to surprise an enemy and attack unseen and then win initiative and not get anything for it because the character already has advantage. This way they get an extra on top of it.

 

[NotAYakk]

[For whatever reason, the text I quoted was deleted from my post, making my post out of context. Deleting out of context post]