Surprise & AoO

[Moirene]

In the Surprise Round (not the first regular one), a character who cannot act because he is surprised but has the Combat Reflexes Feat, can perform AoO or no???

 

[Pax]

Absolutely.

The feat SAYS you get AoO's even when flatfooted; so why would you NOT get an AoO ... ?

 

[Moirene]

Absolutely.

The feat SAYS you get AoO's even when flatfooted; so why would you NOT get an AoO ... ?

The Player Handbook (Chapter 8 - Surprse) says that in the Surprise Round if you are not aware of foes nearby, so you cannot act. So I think that you canno't even make an AoO...

 

[Janos Antero]

Combat Reflexes [General]
Benefit: When foes leave themselves open, the character may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity equal to the character's Dexterity modifier. The character still may only make one attack of opportunity per enemy.

The character may also make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.

Special: A rogue with the Combat Reflexes feat still can only make one attack of opportunity in a round if he uses his opportunist ability to make that attack.


Straight from the SRD. When you have this feat it supercedes the normal procedure, and allows a flat-footed character to make AoO's while suprised.

 

[Pax]

The Player Handbook (Chapter 8 - Surprse) says that in the Surprise Round if you are not aware of foes nearby, so you cannot act. So I think that you canno't even make an AoO...

You cannot act -- fine. For the moment, I won't even argue the point.

But nothing says you cannot react. Which is what an AoO is.

Normally being flatfooted owuld prevent you from reacting too -- but Combat Reflexes specifically and expressly trumps this.

...

Now, that said: the "cannot act" is not intended to mean "must stand there like a droolig idiot" ... what it means is, you cannot take any ACTIONS (Standard, Full Round, Partial). IOW, you don't get to roll initiative, and stand there flatfooted the whole surprise round.

However, thats till doesn't prevent Combat Reflexes from working.

After all, when it's not your turn, you cannot act ... but you can react, in the form of AoO's, so long as you are:

• not flatfooted
• have the Combat Reflexes feat
• all of the above

 

[Greybar]

AoOs and Full Defense

Here's a related question:

Player: "Do you get AoO's while Full Defensive?"
SRD says:
"A combatant doesn't attack or perform any other activity other than moving at base speed, but the combatant gets a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round."
I (GM) says: "So I'd say no."

Player then asks "Do I threaten my space, and does my presence still help to flank someone."
GM says: Oooh, good one. I'd be tempted to say that this one depends on the knowledge of the defender (i.e. could be wishy-washy GM on it). If the defender knows that you're in a totally defensive posture, they won't keep a blade up at you and won't be flanked. But for a simpler answer I'd say "no you don't". Maybe a Bluff roll to "fake out" the other person would be fun.

other thoughts/opinions?

John

 

[Antikinesis]

Re: AoOs and Full Defense

Here's a related question:

Player: "Do you get AoO's while Full Defensive?"
SRD says:
"A combatant doesn't attack or perform any other activity other than moving at base speed, but the combatant gets a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round."
I (GM) says: "So I'd say no."

"Total Defense" is a combat action, taken during a character's turn in combat. AoO's occur between a character's turns, and can still be provoked from a character who has taken the Total Defense action during his or her turn. The description, "A combatant doesn't attack..." is restricting what the character can do during his action, not for the entire round. (Modifiers to AC and attack rolls do last for the entire round, though.)

Player then asks "Do I threaten my space, and does my presence still help to flank someone."
GM says: Oooh, good one. I'd be tempted to say that this one depends on the knowledge of the defender (i.e. could be wishy-washy GM on it). If the defender knows that you're in a totally defensive posture, they won't keep a blade up at you and won't be flanked. But for a simpler answer I'd say "no you don't". Maybe a Bluff roll to "fake out" the other person would be fun.

The player taking Total Defense still threatens, flanks, etc. The character is not running away or cowering, he (assuming male for convenience) is just using his turn to concentrate all of his effort on countering attacks coming his way. If an opponent isn't paying attention to him, and leaves his own defenses open, he can still get in an attack. (Hence the expression, "attack of opportunity".)

other thoughts/opinions?

Aye!

-AK

 

[Greybar]

AK: Well reasoned and spoke, but plenty of actions cause effect that lasts between rounds (Expertise, Power Attack, Dodge as you note). Can you quote Sage or SRD reference to back up your opinion?

Flanking (from SRD):
"If a combatant is making a melee attack against an opponent, and an ally directly opposite the combatant is threatening the opponent, the combatant and the combatant's ally flank the opponent."

Threaten (from SRD):
"A combatant threatens the area into which it can make a melee attack, even when it is not a combatant's action."

If we interpret the rules such that someone in Full Defense can make an AoO, then at what bonus do they attack? Can you AoO at a higher to-hit than someone in "Fight Defensively"? If we see Fight Defensively as being a -4, is "Total Defense" not a -(ALL) modifier?

John

 

[Antikinesis]

AK: Well reasoned and spoke, but plenty of actions cause effect that lasts between rounds (Expertise, Power Attack, Dodge as you note).

Agreed. However, none of these deny a combatant the ability to make AoO's.

Can you quote Sage or SRD reference to back up your opinion?

You have already provided the SRD description of Total Defense, which specifically lists the full-round effects (+AC), in a separate clause from the restrictions for the action (may not attack). It's not even a full-round action. If you change it to a full-round action, that opens up questions about AoO's, flanking, etc.

Flanking (from SRD):
"If a combatant is making a melee attack against an opponent, and an ally directly opposite the combatant is threatening the opponent, the combatant and the combatant's ally flank the opponent."

Threaten (from SRD):
"A combatant threatens the area into which it can make a melee attack, even when it is not a combatant's action."

If we interpret the rules such that someone in Full Defense can make an AoO, then at what bonus do they attack?

Total Defense does not change a character's attack roll.

Can you AoO at a higher to-hit than someone in "Fight Defensively"?

Yes, your AoO attack modifier is higher for Total Defense than it is for Fight Defensively, but you don't get to attack during your action. That's the trade-off.

If we see Fight Defensively as being a -4, is "Total Defense" not a -(ALL) modifier?

Nope. If it was -(ALL), you could make an attack during your action, and can still hit with a natural 20.

-AK

[Edit: text formatting, clarified -(ALL) a little.]

 

[Darklone]

Line of fighters with full defense and tower shields. Some polearm dudes behind them. Strong fighters at each side of the line to bull rush enemies along the line

I love hobgoblins!