Surprise/Grapple Question

[DWARF]

In the surprise round, when someone unaware gets hit by a weapon, they stay flat-footed until their turn on the next round, right?

Okay, so if someone tries to grapple them from behind (attacker was moving silently), they don't get an AoO. But what happens for the opposed grapple check? Since they cannot react well, should they still get the opposed roll, or should the first attack be an automatic success, with subsequent rounds being opposed?

Since I'm afb, I can't check on whether people can make reflex checks while they're surprised, so that doesn't help my reasoning of the problem.

 

[Hypersmurf]

As far as I can tell, the only time someone is denied a Reflex save is when their Dexterity (or their effective Dexterity) is zero.

This is not the same thing as "denied their Dex bonus". Someone who is asleep (or otherwise "helpless") not only gets no Dex bonus, but they are treated as having a Dex of 0, and get a -5 Dex penalty to their AC. In this situation, they also automatically fail any Reflex save.

A flat-footed character gets no Dex bonus against the initial touch attack of a grapple attempt, but they are in no way prevented from opposing the grapple. Opposing a grapple is not tied to your own action in any way.

As a related example - someone with a BAB of +11 and a strength modifier of +2 grapples an opponent with a BAB of +5 and no strength modifier. They are the same size, so no size modifiers apply.

The little guy attempts to deal damage with an opposed grapple check. His +5 modified roll is opposed by the big guy's +13 modified roll.

The big guy has 3 iterative attacks - +11/+6/+1. He can attempt to deal damage by making opposed grapple checks with each of his three attacks. His first attack is +13 vs the little guy's +5. His second is +8 vs +5. And his third is +3 vs +5.

Even though the little guy can only make one attack each round, he can oppose as many as he likes - all with his normal bonus. The big guy can oppose as many attacks as he needs to with a +13... but when he attacks, his bonus decreases with each attack.

Does that help at all?

-Hyp.