Surprise Round Alternatives?

[fba827]

As a DM, I dislike the mechanics for surprise round implementation.

Main concerns:
If you have surprise, you have your one action. That's great if you're already in range (artillery or melee in position). But if you're a melee creature not in position, your _attack_ options pretty much come down to charge (otherwise, you're just running up there but not attacking, or spending your action to run a wide circle for eventual flank).

I like the idea of getting some sort of attack in the surprise round and always charging on a surprise round gets repetitive (to me).


I know I saw on here once something like ...
Surprise round: Those who are surprised are dazed until the start of their next turn, while those not surprised get a regular actions.

It doesn't appear to cut the rogue first strike ability much since being dazed still grants combat advantage.

But I thought I'd ask -- has anyone tried that (or something like it)... and if so, how has it been working for your group?


OR any other options that people have tried that they care to comment on?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Psikus]

I had thought of the same idea, but I haven't been able to test it yet- we don't usually have many surprise rounds in my group. I think this mechanic should work better than the current one, except for one thing: what happens when a surprised character wins the initiative roll?

The way I see it, when you have a surprise round, the encounter should start when one of the characters making the ambush takes the first action. Should we prevent surprised characters from taking actions before the first ambusher's turn? I don't want to penalize high initiative values.

You could force those surprised characters to delay their actions to right after the turn of the first enemy, but you potentially end up with a lot of people acting at the same time.

 

[Nytmare]

I don't think I understand what's rubbing you the wrong way about the surprise round?

Why does it make more sense to you that people are dizzy when they get surprised rather than caught unaware and incapable of doing anything; and how does giving the surprised people more options (they get one action) free the non-surprised melee characters from the boring repetitiveness of only being able to move into a flanking position or charge? They can still only move to flank or charge, right? Unless you have the dazed people cooperatively running forward so that the melee types can mess them up with non basic attacks and combat advantage.

It doesn't appear to cut the rogue first strike ability much since being dazed still grants combat advantage.

Wouldn't your change make taking First Strike pointless since everybody is getting combat advantage for free?


If the surprise round is boring you because the melee-types can't use non basic attacks, why not just start the surprise rounds with everyone standing closer to each other?

 

[Quickleaf]

One thing I'm planning to allow PCs in surprise situations where they're ambushing the enemy is to place their figures on the map wherever they want. I place the bad guys, then the PCs place their minis and get a surprise round as normal.

 

[Nytmare]

One thing I'm planning to allow PCs in surprise situations where they're ambushing the enemy is to place their figures on the map wherever they want. I place the bad guys, then the PCs place their minis and get a surprise round as normal.

This is what I do, even sometimes going so far as to let the players place the bad guys as well, but I dictate how far apart everyone starts, and possibly what area(s) they start in. For example "Put all the bad guys in this room, and you guys can start anywhere within 6 squares of this door." or "the orcs are travelling single file anywhere down the middle of this road, leave at 2 squares between each of them and you guys can start anywhere along the tree-line on either side of the road."

On the flip side of things, if they're setting an ambush, they place their figures, and the playoff between their passive stealth and their opponents passive perception dictates how close the bad guys get before they run the risk of losing their surprise round. Basically: "We set up an ambush here, and we attack when the bad guys get there." and if anyone gets spotted before they spring the ambush, they lose the surprise round.

 

[Bleoberis De Ganis]

How about the suprising side gets +10 to their initiative roll, get an extra move action for free and the suprised give combat advantage.

Edit: Actually scrap that=just give a free move action and use as normal.

 

[Nytmare]

Fba, now that I'm looking at the books, if you're using the stealth/surprise rules as per the DMG, the melee types not getting to do cool things on the first round of combat is kinda entirely their own fault.

First and foremost, surprise typically happens because one group knows about the other and they're laying in wait. Aside from what should be a very rare ambush, every other combat is going to be a straight up initiative roll. The normal "roll for surprise" at the beginning of every combat is a thing of the past.

The DMG suggests making the character with the lowest stealth check make the stealth roll, with party members who are at least 10 squares away making their own checks. That is compared to the passive perception of each creature with every 10 squares away gives the hidden people another +2.

If the party IS staging an ambush, THEY are the ones who decide when they're going to spring that attack, and that means that they can wait till the bad guys are right on top of the melee types to start things rolling.