D&D 5E Surprise with a fight in progress is possible?

[maritimo80]

A battle is taking place between 4 characters and 4 Trolls, and 2 characters are in melee combat two in range combat, further apart.


In the middle of the fight, a fifth enemy, that was sneaky, is surprised (vc Passive Perception) of these two characters in range?


Or the fact that they are in the middle of a fight, can not be surprised?

Surprise with a fight in progress is possible?

 

[trentonjoe]

It sure can happen. And a great idea.

 

[Nebulous]

Sure. It's pretty much the same thing as being attacked by a hidden enemy.

 

[Rod Staffwand]

To be technical, surprise only occurs on the first round of combat. If you are surprised, you can't move, take an action or take a reaction until that turn ends.

Later in the combat, 'surprise' attackers would be considered hidden attackers and gain advantage on their attack rolls vs. combatants that can't see them. The 'surprised' defenders, however, would still be able to act normally.

Otherwise, you could basically negate an entire round of action by the group (no move, actions or reactions) by holding forces in reserve, which seems excessively harsh.

As a DM, you could split the difference and declare those surprised in combat cannot use actions or reactions against the new enemies until the round after they appear--basically requiring the characters take a few moments to readjust to the new combat situation. Appropriate feats and class abilities might avoid this penalty.

 

[Sadrik]

It is not surprise though. It would be them coming into the already established initiative flow. I would have them roll initiative and can join in the fight at any moment. They would be hidden or not hiding depending on their heavy obscurement and stealth roll. When they leave heavy obscurement, a harsh DM would say immediately upon leaving heavy obscurement they are automatically seen. It is up to the DM to determine if they can make a stealth roll or not.

 

[trentonjoe]

If you want to mechanically memic "surprise" you have the bad guys roll initiative and then delay (or ready their action) until the last guy goes. Then they attack with advanatge and if they won initiaitive they go again.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

No.

Surprised means unaware of being in combat soon. (Read it up today.)

 

[Umbran]

It makes sense if the change would tempt the GM to say, "This is now a new combat for all involved." If the new addition really changes the situation so drastically that everyone would stop and reconsider what they're doing, you might well call for surprise.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Maybe, as a DM call, you can do it. I would however just allow the creature to enter combat at whatever initiative he wants. I would not allow assassinate or the like to work. It works on unaware targets. Targets in combat are always aware of danger.

 

[AmerginLiath]

I like Umbran's take on it. Simply adding reinforcements to one side or the other doesn't do much to change the narrative of battle, just the structure of forces (which can already fluctuate with in-battle healing and summoning). However, the introduce of new 'sides' can change the dynamic entirely by creating a third party with either their own agenda or forcing multiple sides to reshuffle sympathies/antipathies (in the classic case, the two groups fighting each other just a round ago might be forced to basically team up if a common foe suddenly emerges). There are a number of narrative possibilities wherein a new encounter structure can emerge even within the same microscopic time of count-by-rounds.

Of course, I'd rule – and have ruled – that certain changes on the ground can force new initiative roles (and even occasionally new surprise roles if something so unpredictable is done by one side that it changes the situation so dramatically that the other would be logically sidestepped for a few seconds), even in the absence of changes in who's-who on the field. It's all part and parcel of the game's evolution from a wargame simulation to a collaborative storytelling engine.