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Surrounded
- Thread starter Talon5
- Start date
Joshua Randall
Legend
The black dragons can fly either 100 ft. (average) [Wyrmling / Very Young] or 150 ft. (poor) [Young - Ancient].
With the fly spell you gain 60 ft. (good) flying movement.
The dragons are faster, but you are more maneuverable. Perhaps you can outmaneuver them and attack with missile weapons and ranged spells.
Any spell with range Long is far beyond even the mightiest dragon's breath weapon range, and depending upon the dragon's age category, you might make stand-off attacks even with Medium range spells. Keep your distance.
If some PCs must close for melee to be effective, they should always try to flank their target. Or, if one melee combatant can't hit the dragons, have him use the Aid Another action to help his comrades. (But personally I only melee as a last resort.)
Protect as many party members as possible with anything you've got: protection from energy (acid) would be a fine choice, but even something like resistance (to improve your saves) could help.
Concentrate all your fire on the weakest / smallest foe and take it down as quickly as possible. You must cut down on the number of attack actions your enemies get. Use the slaying arrow first but be prepared with follow-up attacks if it doesn't work.
For reference, a black dragon's poorest save (slightly) is Reflex. That should make the sorcerer happy - the hemispherical wall of ice requires just such a save.
Meta-gaming: per the SRD,
If these were my PCs, I'd surrender. It's easier to escape from prison than to fight four dragons.
With the fly spell you gain 60 ft. (good) flying movement.
The dragons are faster, but you are more maneuverable. Perhaps you can outmaneuver them and attack with missile weapons and ranged spells.
Any spell with range Long is far beyond even the mightiest dragon's breath weapon range, and depending upon the dragon's age category, you might make stand-off attacks even with Medium range spells. Keep your distance.
If some PCs must close for melee to be effective, they should always try to flank their target. Or, if one melee combatant can't hit the dragons, have him use the Aid Another action to help his comrades. (But personally I only melee as a last resort.)
Protect as many party members as possible with anything you've got: protection from energy (acid) would be a fine choice, but even something like resistance (to improve your saves) could help.
Concentrate all your fire on the weakest / smallest foe and take it down as quickly as possible. You must cut down on the number of attack actions your enemies get. Use the slaying arrow first but be prepared with follow-up attacks if it doesn't work.
For reference, a black dragon's poorest save (slightly) is Reflex. That should make the sorcerer happy - the hemispherical wall of ice requires just such a save.
Meta-gaming: per the SRD,
It's a long shot (and in the hands of the DM), but you might be able to distract them with piles of money. Better poor than dead. Also,
You should scream bloody murder if the dragons enter the fight on the wing. They should come in swimming. (This is also in the hands of the DM, but given how lopsided this encounter already is, he really shouldn't cheat by having the dragons behave contrary to their writeup.)
If these were my PCs, I'd surrender. It's easier to escape from prison than to fight four dragons.
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
Well, your options are rather limited aren't they. Are you playing 3.0 or 3.5?
I'd say that the first thing you need to do is get some resistance to their breath weapons. Mass Resist Elements should do the trick nicely if you've got it. (And it's better in 3.5--it might very well make their breath weapons an insignificant factor in the combat).
The second thing you need to do is control the battlefield. Your fighters probably can't take on more than one or two dragons at once. So, you need a distraction for the others.
If the druid can spontaneously cast summonings, a flock of hippogriffs (augmented if possible) or griffons or pegasi could provide the distraction you need. (The nice thing about hippogriffs is that Wingover makes them more manueverable than the dragons who will have to either land or keep provoking AoOs for movement--sic them on the large dragon (if it isn't taken out by the arrow of slaying) though; others probably have DR which will keep them from being effective).
Entangle, web, or briar web could also tie up some of the dragons for a few rounds.
Similarly, a tanglefoot bag or a net tied to a tree could bring a flying dragon down, inflict some damage, and, if you're fast enough, keep it from reaching you until you've finished off the other dragons.
Use what debuff spells you have to minimize your foes' effectiveness. If you Slow the dragons, they'll find it very difficult to fly and their combat capability is cut by nearly 80%. If you hit them with a ray of Enfeeblement, they'll also lose a lot.
Other than that, consider your equipment. If anyone has a weapon of wounding (3.0 version), you may want to wound the dragons and then try all of your best delaying tactics. If a dragon spends one round shredding a net, two rounds breaking free of a tanglefoot bag (which still halves his movement and could prevent flight) and three rounds getting out of the briar web and then has to spend 10 rounds catching up to the battle, that woudl be 32 points of wounding damage with no end in sight. If you can then pump your fighters' AC (Combat Expertise, fighting defensively, defensive stance, etc) high enough that the dragon only hits on 19s or 20s, you could probably just wait the dragon out--especially if you had a regenerate wounds spell active.
Also, the dragons are large to huge. See if you can't take advantage of that. Perhaps you can find a heavily wooded area of the bog where the dragons will have trouble manuevering (if it's 3.5, you might get your DM to make them use the squeezing rules). A canopy of trees might also make it harder for the dragons to execute flybys.
So, do what you can to split them up. Do what you can to minimize their advantages (flight, mobility, breath weapons, multiple attacks). And pray.
I'd say that the first thing you need to do is get some resistance to their breath weapons. Mass Resist Elements should do the trick nicely if you've got it. (And it's better in 3.5--it might very well make their breath weapons an insignificant factor in the combat).
The second thing you need to do is control the battlefield. Your fighters probably can't take on more than one or two dragons at once. So, you need a distraction for the others.
If the druid can spontaneously cast summonings, a flock of hippogriffs (augmented if possible) or griffons or pegasi could provide the distraction you need. (The nice thing about hippogriffs is that Wingover makes them more manueverable than the dragons who will have to either land or keep provoking AoOs for movement--sic them on the large dragon (if it isn't taken out by the arrow of slaying) though; others probably have DR which will keep them from being effective).
Entangle, web, or briar web could also tie up some of the dragons for a few rounds.
Similarly, a tanglefoot bag or a net tied to a tree could bring a flying dragon down, inflict some damage, and, if you're fast enough, keep it from reaching you until you've finished off the other dragons.
Use what debuff spells you have to minimize your foes' effectiveness. If you Slow the dragons, they'll find it very difficult to fly and their combat capability is cut by nearly 80%. If you hit them with a ray of Enfeeblement, they'll also lose a lot.
Other than that, consider your equipment. If anyone has a weapon of wounding (3.0 version), you may want to wound the dragons and then try all of your best delaying tactics. If a dragon spends one round shredding a net, two rounds breaking free of a tanglefoot bag (which still halves his movement and could prevent flight) and three rounds getting out of the briar web and then has to spend 10 rounds catching up to the battle, that woudl be 32 points of wounding damage with no end in sight. If you can then pump your fighters' AC (Combat Expertise, fighting defensively, defensive stance, etc) high enough that the dragon only hits on 19s or 20s, you could probably just wait the dragon out--especially if you had a regenerate wounds spell active.
Also, the dragons are large to huge. See if you can't take advantage of that. Perhaps you can find a heavily wooded area of the bog where the dragons will have trouble manuevering (if it's 3.5, you might get your DM to make them use the squeezing rules). A canopy of trees might also make it harder for the dragons to execute flybys.
So, do what you can to split them up. Do what you can to minimize their advantages (flight, mobility, breath weapons, multiple attacks). And pray.
Joshua Randall
Legend
Somehow I overlooked the druid. In additional to Elder-Basilisk's advice, here are some good 5th level druid spells:
* Baleful Polymorph - nonideal because it's a Fort save, but maybe worth a desperation gamble.
* Call Lightning Storm - the 3.5 version no longer sucks. It's consistent damage across multiple rounds, so whenever the druid lacks something better to do, he can blast a dragon with lightning.
* Control Winds - depending upon the prevailing conditions when you cast this, it could completely prevent flying outside the "eye" of the storm.
* Tree Stride - the druid's Dimension Door, assuming there are plenty of trees around.
* Wall of Fire / Wall of Thorns - divide the battlefield; separate dragons from each other.
Remember that you can make a cylindrical wall of fire with the flames on the inside - a nasty trap if you can keep the dragon inside. Also remember that a creature trapped in a wall of thorns has to take full round actions to move - and dragons taking full round actions to move are dragons that are not melting you with acid breath or clawing you to pieces with full attacks.
* Baleful Polymorph - nonideal because it's a Fort save, but maybe worth a desperation gamble.
* Call Lightning Storm - the 3.5 version no longer sucks. It's consistent damage across multiple rounds, so whenever the druid lacks something better to do, he can blast a dragon with lightning.
* Control Winds - depending upon the prevailing conditions when you cast this, it could completely prevent flying outside the "eye" of the storm.
* Tree Stride - the druid's Dimension Door, assuming there are plenty of trees around.
* Wall of Fire / Wall of Thorns - divide the battlefield; separate dragons from each other.
Remember that you can make a cylindrical wall of fire with the flames on the inside - a nasty trap if you can keep the dragon inside. Also remember that a creature trapped in a wall of thorns has to take full round actions to move - and dragons taking full round actions to move are dragons that are not melting you with acid breath or clawing you to pieces with full attacks.
You might be able to intimidate your way out using the arrow of dragon slaying... fire it, and the threat is gone, and you've maybe eliminated one dragon if you're lucky, but while it's in your bow, it's a threat to each of the dragons. Just shout out "we've got an arrow of slaying, and the first dragon to attack is getting it in the face". Each of the four dragons might wait for one of the others to attack.
Any idea how friendly the dragons are to each other? If they're each competing for their master's favour, you could try splitting up. The idea is to get each party member captured by a dragon. That party member then tells the dragon that he'll lead the dragon back to the rest, so the dragon can capture the whole party and get all the prestige. All four dragons meet up, each convinced that it's the rightful captor and the other three are trying to steal its glory....
Any idea how friendly the dragons are to each other? If they're each competing for their master's favour, you could try splitting up. The idea is to get each party member captured by a dragon. That party member then tells the dragon that he'll lead the dragon back to the rest, so the dragon can capture the whole party and get all the prestige. All four dragons meet up, each convinced that it's the rightful captor and the other three are trying to steal its glory....
Wow!
Um- okay from the top, the communication with the GM is fairly open, as a GM myself I try not to stumble my fellow GM as he will turn about and do the same to me, as he's lots smarter and quicker witted then I.... well he'd do better then I would. What I am keeping back- well he likes to show the the end before it happens, you know, show the knife in on the bed and someone gets into a fight and the knife ends the villian. Well I think he's done that twice. One other player saw one and I figured out the other earlier. I will try to remember to tell you all Sunday or Monday- right or wrong.
(Note- If I am right, then I feel lots better about the situation. If I am wrong- well we're dead.)
Okay- considering the size and saves and the odds- your right as to which one I should shoot.
As far as doing lots of damage- Grayson (my archer) for example does 1d8+3+PBS+3 GMW, he has rapid shot so thats 3 arrows at 1d8+7 at best, thats (w/o crit) 45 hp of damage per round. Blacks have between 150 to 400 hp. SR is 19 to 28 for those, and no one has Spell Pen.
The Lyada (Druid/Ranger) NPC takes orders like I do- not very well. I hope she has some of the spells you speak of, I will write them down and try to use them as suggestions during the fight. Hopefully she has them.
Our Lelenia (our Sorc) needs to Fly our HtH combatants first I think. Its whats gonna get her killed but if our big guns can't get to the dragons then we are really screwed. The Wall of Ice is a great idea and it could be used very effectively, you are so very right there, but the Fly thing I think is more important up front. Perhaps....
Not sure (once again) what spells the others have will have to get with them on that.
Thanks for your time and the suggestions
Um- okay from the top, the communication with the GM is fairly open, as a GM myself I try not to stumble my fellow GM as he will turn about and do the same to me, as he's lots smarter and quicker witted then I.... well he'd do better then I would. What I am keeping back- well he likes to show the the end before it happens, you know, show the knife in on the bed and someone gets into a fight and the knife ends the villian. Well I think he's done that twice. One other player saw one and I figured out the other earlier. I will try to remember to tell you all Sunday or Monday- right or wrong.
(Note- If I am right, then I feel lots better about the situation. If I am wrong- well we're dead.)
Okay- considering the size and saves and the odds- your right as to which one I should shoot.
As far as doing lots of damage- Grayson (my archer) for example does 1d8+3+PBS+3 GMW, he has rapid shot so thats 3 arrows at 1d8+7 at best, thats (w/o crit) 45 hp of damage per round. Blacks have between 150 to 400 hp. SR is 19 to 28 for those, and no one has Spell Pen.
The Lyada (Druid/Ranger) NPC takes orders like I do- not very well. I hope she has some of the spells you speak of, I will write them down and try to use them as suggestions during the fight. Hopefully she has them.
Our Lelenia (our Sorc) needs to Fly our HtH combatants first I think. Its whats gonna get her killed but if our big guns can't get to the dragons then we are really screwed. The Wall of Ice is a great idea and it could be used very effectively, you are so very right there, but the Fly thing I think is more important up front. Perhaps....
Not sure (once again) what spells the others have will have to get with them on that.
Thanks for your time and the suggestions
BardStephenFox said:*laugh* Trying to keep a secret plan to spring on the DM? I understand the feeling. However, there are lots of times where I will actually email my DM an idea beforehand so he can keep it in mind as one of my possible options. Especially if it involves a lot of variables. I like to let him think about the options so he can have an appropriate response ready ahead of time. Some of my plans get a bit convoluted and I don't want to bog down the game if I can avoid it. Though, there have been plenty of times where we have ideas that don't make it into our discussions on our webboard. They just come up when the dice start to fall.
But, back to your situation. I woudl definitely use the slaying arrow on the dragon it is most likely to affect. With dragons the size of what you are fighting, you may be dealing with as many as 5 attacks a round from each of them. That's why I suggest trying to use walls to avoid being surrounded. Sure, if the arrow works and you take out one of the huge dragons, you got more value for the arrow. But, if it doesn't work, and the difference in the save would have been enough to take out the large dragon, then you didn't get any value for the arrow. Unless you are feeling lucky, I would stick with the odds.
When dealing with multiple tough opponents, it is always better to focus on one at a time until it falls, or leaves. Even if you drop all 4 dragons down below 10 HP, they can all still attack with full capabilities. Whereas, if you focused on one at a time, you would end up with 1 dragon that still had 40-50 HP, but you would have reduced the offensive power against you by 75%.
Let's see, it isn't likely that the Druid/Ranger has Transmute mud to rock,or control winds. If you had that, it would be fun to drop the mud to rock as soon as the dragons landed in the marsh. Assuming you could get them to land.
You could use the Wall of Ice to encourage the dragons to attack from one side only. Then, drop spike growth in the grass in front of you. If a dragon lands, they will take some damage.
If you are going to fight this out, you want to do as much as you can to setup some control of the combat area. Just standing on the hill and swinging when you see them will not work. They are faster than you and can surround you. Since Black Dragons are immune to acid, they can just breath from each direction, you will be caught in some nasty overlaps and even the rogue will probably fail a save or two. The dragons won't feel a thing. Use your spells to block off certain attack vectors.
Use some minor summoning spells to bring in air elementals and try to whip up some wind. This will force the dragons to the ground. Use spike growth to make the area they walk through do damage to them. Even entangle might slow one dragon down for 1 round. Try plant growth as well. What are the weather conditions like? Any chance of pulling off a Call Lightning?
Just a few more thoughts...
Bribing would be an option except one little problem- we have no money.
The Sorc- Lelenia, has spent more then 3000 gp in scrolls and about 2500 gp in buying stuff alone. Grayson- my archer, recently bought his first magic weapon- a long sword (he still has a MW Mighty (+4) Long Comp Bow). Bought the sword up from MW to +1 before entering the Marsh (at 8th lvl), so he was broke at the on set. The other two PCs- not sure about their coin situation but when pressed the last time in town, they proclaimed having few platnum (less then 20 between them as I recall) and not much of anything else.
Dammed good idea thou. Thanks
The Sorc- Lelenia, has spent more then 3000 gp in scrolls and about 2500 gp in buying stuff alone. Grayson- my archer, recently bought his first magic weapon- a long sword (he still has a MW Mighty (+4) Long Comp Bow). Bought the sword up from MW to +1 before entering the Marsh (at 8th lvl), so he was broke at the on set. The other two PCs- not sure about their coin situation but when pressed the last time in town, they proclaimed having few platnum (less then 20 between them as I recall) and not much of anything else.
Dammed good idea thou. Thanks
Joshua Randall said:
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