Surtur Preview

[Colin_Fredericks]

Very neat overall. The descriptions are good, and the new font is a major improvement.

There's one little thing that bugged me: No character of level 154 or higher (i.e. any character who should be in a fight against a CR 160 monster) can possibly fail their DC 139 saving throw against Surtur's Cosmic Blast, except on a natural 1. They have a minimum save (Fort, Ref, and Will) of +140: at least 6 points from levels up to 20th, and 134 points from the levels from 21 through 154. This doesn't even count bonuses from items, which will likely be another +30 or so by that level.

The much-beloved Neutronium Golem had the same problem - no one who could challenge it would ever fail their saves.

Admittedly, the changes to the rules you're making in the Immortals Handbook might void these comments, since they're based on the existing Epic Level Handbook.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

Very neat overall. The descriptions are good, and the new font is a major improvement.

There's one little thing that bugged me: No character of level 154 or higher (i.e. any character who should be in a fight against a CR 160 monster) can possibly fail their DC 139 saving throw against Surtur's Cosmic Blast, except on a natural 1. They have a minimum save (Fort, Ref, and Will) of +140: at least 6 points from levels up to 20th, and 134 points from the levels from 21 through 154. This doesn't even count bonuses from items, which will likely be another +30 or so by that level...

I think you have forgotten in epic base save bonuses are at 1/2 level. IE Base save bonuses are +73 to +79.

But yes, the Neutronium Golem has a lot of powers that are easily saved against. But I think its challenge comes more from the Numbers-cruch; You have to save every round. Even if you have a higher bonus than it's DC, you still fail on ones, and it forces rolls on pretty much everyone. Unless it is killed in 1-shot, it is likely to take someone out of the fight with its auras and things.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Colin!

Very neat overall. The descriptions are good, and the new font is a major improvement.

Thanks. Its also the font used in the print version of the Epic Bestiary.

There's one little thing that bugged me: No character of level 154 or higher (i.e. any character who should be in a fight against a CR 160 monster)

Actually, according to my calculations characters with an ECL of 120 or better should be capable of fighting Surtur. See below.

can possibly fail their DC 139 saving throw against Surtur's Cosmic Blast, except on a natural 1. They have a minimum save (Fort, Ref, and Will) of +140: at least 6 points from levels up to 20th, and 134 points from the levels from 21 through 154. This doesn't even count bonuses from items, which will likely be another +30 or so by that level.

Its difficult to anticipate a 154th-level character's saving throws - though the base would be 79.

However, looking at Surtur's DC, it does look way to high. Which is a problem with the 1/2 Hit Dice protocols* used in D&D.

*DC = 10 + 1/2 HD + Ability Mod + Divine Rank

Its not entirely obvious as to the solution, but probably some method to doctor the 1/2 HD mechanic would be apropriate.

Perhaps it should just be 20 + Ability Mod + Divine Rank

The much-beloved Neutronium Golem had the same problem - no one who could challenge it would ever fail their saves.

They would still fail on a natural '1'.

Although I actually believe that the Neutronium Golem's Challenge Rating is unbalanced with regards Immortals Handbook created PCs. Simply because the cosmic and transcendental powers are better than the sum of their parts.

Admittedly, the changes to the rules you're making in the Immortals Handbook might void these comments, since they're based on the existing Epic Level Handbook.

A few things on note.

Firstly, I have determined the following equation: Challenge Rating x2 = Encounter Level +4

a subset of this is Challenge Rating x1.5 = Encounter Level +2

What this means is that, Surtur, at CR 160 (ECL 240) would be equal to a party of 5 characters of 120th-level.

Challenge Rating is 2/3rds Effective Class Level.

Therefore a 100th-level character is only Challenge Rating 66, and a Challenge Rating 66 monster (Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon for instance) would be Effective Class Level 100 (in terms of how its listed stats compare to a PC)

Secondly, don't be too concerned about epic encounters where some PCs will hit on anything but a '1' and only fail saves on a '1'. In some instances this is simply going to happen and there is no way to avoid it. Chances are this is going to be the case for monsters from time to time, so ultimately it will balance out.

Thanks for the feedback Colin.

 

[Kalanyr]

Actually I think the
10 + 1/2 HD + Ability Mod + Divine Rank is fair.

Remember that saves are at least: 16 + (Level-20)/2 + Ability Mod + Divine Rank.

A "good save" is 2 + 1/2 HD + Ability Mod + Divine Rank.

Essentially assuming that your "good" save Ability Mod is equal to the Ability Mod used to set the DC (which is okay for Clerics & Rogues at the least), then on you're good save you've got a 65% chance of passing. If you "focus" on making saves (a +5 Cloak of Resistance costs peanuts at these levels), you can easily get yourself up to a 90% chance of passing).

For the most part a power based creature will get screwed if you go with 20 + Ability Mod + Divine Rank. A 101 HD creature with a Good Save has a +52 Before Abilty Mod or Divine Rank, thats enough to automaitcally save against a Divine Rank 16 creature with a power stat of 42 (if we assume equal divine ranks then the power stat increases to 74, if we assume that they are both using their favoured stat and have equal divine rank the power user can considering himself doomed ).

Basing this of the experience of playing an epic spellcaster in 3.5e, (it is almost impossible to be effective using spells that allow saves because 3.5e makes it really damn easy to build up saving throws that are untouchable, unless the spellcaster spends a Feat Slot and Gold and Xp and Time on Epic Magic) it is really freaking annoying being unable to use your abilities on creatures that are supposed to be a "fair challenge".

 

[dante58701]

I disagree...spellcasters are perfectly balanced just for that very reason. Spell casters as it is have plenty of spells that allow no saving throws. Which is fine...Fighters and Rogues have abilities that allow no saving throws. But though a spellcaster traditionally has low hit points and you can save against their spells, they are often times the most likely to survive to higher levels due to being far more intelligent and more methodical. Spellcasters are supposed to be tricky to run. If they were easy we'd have mages running amok and destroying whole worlds in every campaign session.

As for designing new spells...that comes with the territory of playing a spellcaster. Magic is powerful and that power comes at a price.

We must also consider the fact that nearly every ascended deity is a spellcaster. They simply use heighten spell multiple times to increase the DC of their spell. Another option is to design spells that make saving throws difficult. Like the classic combination of "Otto's Irresistable Dance" (Requires that you roll a 20 to save successfully" and "Chromatic Orb (Save or Die)". Spells are often best as combinations. Which is while being able to cast multiple spells is also useful against people with super awesome saving throws.
At 10th Level a wizard is easily the superior of nearly every player on the battle field. They can typically cast fly, grease, and fireball. They can stay well out of arrow range after greasing the area and launch a few fireballs for fun. Then stand back and watch everyone die in the grease fire, assuming the 10d6 fireballs didnt kill everyone.

At Epic Levels there are the spell focus feats, but I find those to be a waste of feats. I ust heighten the spell repeatedly and blast the out of my targets with spells that make you save for half damage...after making my enemies immobile with transmute rock to mud and then transmute mud to rock. Against wizards I have powerful defensive spells that are continually active via Permanent Emanation and blast them with their own magicks via epic spell turning. All while delivering improved versions of Hellball at their feet. That way the exploding debris also damages them...sure...minor extra damage...but the even incidentals can be useful.

My all time favorite tactic is to play an epic wizard who pretend to be only 1st level. Then when people try to kill them...they get blasted. Wizards arent likely to hang out with others...and when they do...they are more likely to hang out with those that have the same physical toughness as themselves (which includes lower level non spellcasters and roughly equal level spellcasters). Only in an adventuring (gaming) group do you find characters of roughly equal level. This is unrealistic in the extreme. To simulate what would really happen if magic were real...

Have spellcasters start off at a level where they have hit points equal to the nonspellcasters. This way they can get into a knock down drag out fight and still not die in the first round. Spells are not everything.