Survival True North DC?

[Ninja-to]

Interesting problem came up last game. A player with 2 ranks in Survival wanted to know the direction of true north while underground. He's a dwarf, and I thought it would make sense that he could do it, but then in the Survival description it says you need 5 ranks to be able to dicern true north with perfect success.

What it doesn't say, is:

1) If you have less than 5 ranks, what is the DC? If you fail, what happens? Wrong direction? I assumed failing by more than 5 reveals a mistake.

2) Should you be outdoors to use Survival in this way? Or is underground ok? It would seem 'Dungeoneering' would be a more appropriate skill for this type of thing. Then again, if it were a dwarf using the skill, his 'outside' is underground...

3) Does synergy and bonuses count? Or only actual 'ranks' spent on the skill. I think the latter but not sure.

 

[dorentir]

It says if you have 5 or more ranks in dungeoneering, you get a +2 to your survival skill while underground via a synergy bonus.
I'd give him a chance to determine north underground using his survival skill possibly modified by dungeoneering, but make it fairly difficult. I'd think of it like any other skill check --- climbing a rough wall is easier than climbing a smooth stone wall because of handholds. Determining true north above ground might be easier above ground because you could see the sun or stars.

 

[Inigo Carmine]

According to the survival rules, you need 5 ranks in order to automatically determine North. There's no more a DC associated with it than letting a 1st level wizard cast 5th level spells by making a spellcraft check. (and I mean inherently, not from a scroll, etc).

If there were clues to the direction he could follow them, but it wouldn't be automatic knowledge of what direction is North.

For instance, outside during the daytime I would allow someone to use the sun to guide them. Of course, the problem is that the sun doesn't follow an east-to-west arc exactly, so they would be slightly off at best.

Underground, I am aware of no such clues as to the direction you are travelling.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Funny.. my first thought reading the title of the thread was "wait a second, true north is an artifact of scientific discovery and is based on the axis the world spins on... you can't find 'True North' without extensive maps/surveys etc..."

But, your right. The text does state the 5 ranks can determine 'True North' automatically.

As to underground, the SRD states "If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (dungeoneering), you get a +2 bonus on Survival checks made while underground."

For DC's to determine North..a couple options:
Based on the ease of the 5 rank deal, make it DC 10. Most characters with 5 ranks would auto-succeed at this point anyway.

or.. of to Poster C land again.. been doing that alot recently...

Ignore that, IMO, silly rule and go with the following:

Base DC 25
+5 bonus if you have lived in the area for more than 1 month
+5 bonus if there are two or more known landmarks, such as mountain ranges within sight
+5 bonus if there are astrological bodies visible
Autosucceed with a Lodestone

Here is my train of thought..without references, direction is extremely easy to get confused. Underground passageways are worse as subtle changes to a long tunnel can easily be missed, or a left, right left, left path actually gets you to the right of your original tunnel... However, with training {read points into Survival} and a handful of references it becomes second nature.

Also, underground you tend to think in terms of 'to get to Shelobs lair I need to follow the cavern with the chalky white rock'... not in terms of 'head east'. The only purpose for knowing cardinal direction underground, barring religous restrictions for prayer time or something similar, is to try to find an unknown opening to the surface world near a desired location.
fx, Orcs are planning to attack a party camped near the fork in the river topside. A series of tunnels do lead that way but the Orcs had never explored them. Suvival checks would allow them to determine direction and distance, guestimating when they are beneath the parties camp.

Hmm.. just noticed somethign interesting. The SRD environs do not include underground!
Dungeons are listed basically as buildings below the surface of the dirt and none of the fun spelunking features are mentioned.

 

[Arnwyn]

What it doesn't say, is:

1) If you have less than 5 ranks, what is the DC? If you fail, what happens? Wrong direction? I assumed failing by more than 5 reveals a mistake.

It doesn't say anything about a DC, because there is no DC... you simply "can't".

2) Should you be outdoors to use Survival in this way? Or is underground ok? It would seem 'Dungeoneering' would be a more appropriate skill for this type of thing. Then again, if it were a dwarf using the skill, his 'outside' is underground...

As per the rules, you can use it wherever you want.

3) Does synergy and bonuses count? Or only actual 'ranks' spent on the skill. I think the latter but not sure.

Nope. Ranks in survival only.

(IMO, this is a [big] deficiency in the 3.5 rules, but that's just me.)

 

[Ninja-to]

Well it seems to go by the book, there is no possibility. I'd also agree that determining location underground is damn near impossible. I can't even think of a way to do it, except maybe make a makeshift compass, which nobody in the middle-ages or dark ages knew how to do. Maybe Greyhawk doesn't even have a magnetic pole!

So, I guess I'll leave it as Survival 5 ranks only, no exceptions, and must be above the surface. I don't see any logical way of knowing true north underground without a compass.