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[SWD20] Why can't I play a Battle Droid?
- Thread starter Operator
- Start date
Kesh
First Post
Actually, what AotC proves is that the battle droids have CPUs in their heads, but still recieve a majority of their combat commands via the big antenna pack on their backs. Threepio's own nature was being overridden by the command pack, while the BD-head on his body was trying its best to keep up with combat but completely ineffective.
It sounds like battle droids have basic independent droid brains, but get the majority of their combat tactics and abilities via the uplink to the command ship. And, by default, when their signal is lost they are disabled (probably to prevent them going berserk and shooting everything in sight).
Now, since the head was working without an antenna pack, we can assume that the droid brain is perfectly capable of operating without a command signal. It just lacks command structure and possibly many combat abilities. This explains the command structure as well: the local 'commander droids' can give orders for localized situations, while the main command ship handles the overall tactical processing and major orders.
From that concept, you could say that you have a battle droid that was re-activated after the Emperor's orders to have them all shut down. Without a command signal, he has no real purpose... and has to find his own.
The problem being that combat droids are a somewhat grey area in the Empire. IIRC, they're illegal to own, but free combat droids are allowed to run their own lives (until someone decides to kill them). So, your combat droid would have to be looking over his shoulder all the time.
Could be fun. Let us know if it works out.
It sounds like battle droids have basic independent droid brains, but get the majority of their combat tactics and abilities via the uplink to the command ship. And, by default, when their signal is lost they are disabled (probably to prevent them going berserk and shooting everything in sight).
Now, since the head was working without an antenna pack, we can assume that the droid brain is perfectly capable of operating without a command signal. It just lacks command structure and possibly many combat abilities. This explains the command structure as well: the local 'commander droids' can give orders for localized situations, while the main command ship handles the overall tactical processing and major orders.
From that concept, you could say that you have a battle droid that was re-activated after the Emperor's orders to have them all shut down. Without a command signal, he has no real purpose... and has to find his own.
The problem being that combat droids are a somewhat grey area in the Empire. IIRC, they're illegal to own, but free combat droids are allowed to run their own lives (until someone decides to kill them). So, your combat droid would have to be looking over his shoulder all the time.
Could be fun. Let us know if it works out.
Ankh-Morpork Guard
First Post
Peterson said:So....
Is Ankh-Morpork Guard your GM?
Nope, just the local SWd20 junkie...errr, Star Wars junkie.
Kesh said:
Antenna doesn't really mean a thing in SW. Comlinks don't have antenna and they work at least between a planet's surface and ships in orbit. The Threepio thing is likely unexplainable beyond the simple movie comedy moment. Especially since the B1's droid manufacterer is completely different than 3PO's base(even though he was constructed by Anakin, the 3PO model is a different company than the B1s). The compatability makes no sense technically, and even Threepio's body acts without its head as if its got two 'control' sources.
So...with ALL droids, bodies can act without heads, and vice versa. But B1s still require the control ship/facility to operate at all.
Kesh said:
Note that the Commander OOM series of Battle Droids also lack heuristic processors and require the control ship/facility to operate. They aren't independent anymore than the basic B1 model. So, we can assume that they simply recieve their commands and control from a different part of the ship's processessing unit.
Kesh said:
Except that, by the rules, without a heuristic processor, this isn't possible. Without that one little thing, the droid is essentially a brainless drone. They can't think, learn, etc, or do anything of the sort without direct orders.
So, as I suggested before, the best way to do this is have, in the droid's background, a techie that took out the reciever and put a heuristic processor instead.
Twiggly the Gnome
Legend
Interesting thread. I'm not up on the minutia of the battle droid example, but I can sympathize with the "forbidden fruit" aspect. After I read the "restricted options" in the RPGA's Living Force guidelines, I knew that if I ever got to play in a Star Wars game that my first character would be a Ewok Crimelord. ![:]](http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/devious.png "Devious :]")
AmorphousBlob
First Post
I just thought I'd add my 2 cents on this one. I was also confused by some of the behaviors of the battle droids. But I came upon an idea that neither requires the battle droids to be independent nor does it mean they can't react to things on a per unit basis. I propose that the B1s have a sort of minor, local processor that can function for a matter of seconds on its own and can do only minor actions, but that it still needs the remote processor to function. Think of this: people nowadays play a lot of online games. These games can occasionally have their signals interrupted, and often do, but only for a fraction of a second. This is called packet loss. I propose that the B1s have a sort of minor "nerve system" that can function independently for a short amount of time to make up for packet loss.
I'm sorry, but using the films as the source there is no way to have all the B1 droids be simple "dumb terminals"...
In TPM they continued to operate for a few seconds without orbital control signals. A few seconds may not sound like a lot, but it is still impossible under the "dumb terminal" model. In AotC they reactivate after the control signal was cut off. In RotS it never comes up...
Here's how I see the arguements breaking down:
1. The droids are actually receiving a carrier signal from the control ship, which merely instructs them to continue operating. This may have been designed as a safety measure for the Neimoidians, who would otherwise be hopelessly outnumbered by their opponents in the unlikely event of a droid revolt. A droid revolt seems unlikely, but it is always possible that if the droids are sentient, they might object to their treatment. Another possibility is that the Neimoidians may fear that a competitor might have somehow maliciously reprogrammed the droids to revolt, hence a central point of control. This is a rather poor design decision from many aspects (there must be some better way to deal with the possibility of droid revolt or malicious re-programming), but we should remember that the Neimoidians are businessmen rather than soldiers or engineers. This signal would have a "keepalive" period which would explain the fact that the droids continued to operate for a short period of time, and there might actually been a self-destruct command built into the droids in the event that the keepalive signal was lost, thus explaining the fact that the droids actually fell apart after the loss of the signal.
2.The droid central control computer was programmed to mimic independent sentience (including aspects such as rank structues and humour) on the part of the individual droids, even to the extent that significant potential tactical advantages of centralized control are lost (such as the theoretical ability for droids to attack targets without having to visually identify them first, based on visual data from other droids). This seems rather implausible, to say the least. There is also no obvious reason why they would go to such great lengths to mimic sentience when it actually costs them in battle rather than helping them.
3.The droids had certain autonomous functions but no decision-making abilities, thus giving them partial sentience. They would therefore perform functions like firing and aiming weapons based on local intelligence, as well as certain interactions with the populace (such as the droid commander's conversation with Qui-Gon). However, they would periodically take orders from the control ship, and they would be designed to shut down in the absence of those orders. This model is somewhat difficult to rationalize, since it is difficult to imagine how one would produce an artificial intelligence that could mimic so many of the characteristics of sentient human beings without being able to make even the smallest decisions.
4.The army assembled to fight the Gungans was substantially different from the droids on the TradeFed battleships or the units in Theed. Those droids might have been low-end units, as opposed to the higher-end units in Theed which had substantial local intelligence (like normal droids, such as R2 units and interpreter droids). The droids who fought the Gungans certainly seemed to exhibit a lower level of individual initiative. However, this would suggest that some of the droids on the planet (particularly the commander units in Theed) would have continued to function after the destruction of the control ship. According to the (non-canon) novelization, this didn't happen.
5.The droids were powered by the droid control ship, which had some technology for directly transmitting power to the droids in some manner that is difficult to intercept. This would explain the rapid shutdown after the destruction of the control ship while also explaining the apparent presence of autonomous intelligence.
In conclusion, explanation #1 and #4 are the best candidates. The official SW cross-sections books explicitly disagrees with both interpretations, as does the SWd20 Core Rules but both are flagrantly inconsistent with the behaviour of the infantry droids in the film.
In TPM they continued to operate for a few seconds without orbital control signals. A few seconds may not sound like a lot, but it is still impossible under the "dumb terminal" model. In AotC they reactivate after the control signal was cut off. In RotS it never comes up...
Here's how I see the arguements breaking down:
1. The droids are actually receiving a carrier signal from the control ship, which merely instructs them to continue operating. This may have been designed as a safety measure for the Neimoidians, who would otherwise be hopelessly outnumbered by their opponents in the unlikely event of a droid revolt. A droid revolt seems unlikely, but it is always possible that if the droids are sentient, they might object to their treatment. Another possibility is that the Neimoidians may fear that a competitor might have somehow maliciously reprogrammed the droids to revolt, hence a central point of control. This is a rather poor design decision from many aspects (there must be some better way to deal with the possibility of droid revolt or malicious re-programming), but we should remember that the Neimoidians are businessmen rather than soldiers or engineers. This signal would have a "keepalive" period which would explain the fact that the droids continued to operate for a short period of time, and there might actually been a self-destruct command built into the droids in the event that the keepalive signal was lost, thus explaining the fact that the droids actually fell apart after the loss of the signal.
2.The droid central control computer was programmed to mimic independent sentience (including aspects such as rank structues and humour) on the part of the individual droids, even to the extent that significant potential tactical advantages of centralized control are lost (such as the theoretical ability for droids to attack targets without having to visually identify them first, based on visual data from other droids). This seems rather implausible, to say the least. There is also no obvious reason why they would go to such great lengths to mimic sentience when it actually costs them in battle rather than helping them.
3.The droids had certain autonomous functions but no decision-making abilities, thus giving them partial sentience. They would therefore perform functions like firing and aiming weapons based on local intelligence, as well as certain interactions with the populace (such as the droid commander's conversation with Qui-Gon). However, they would periodically take orders from the control ship, and they would be designed to shut down in the absence of those orders. This model is somewhat difficult to rationalize, since it is difficult to imagine how one would produce an artificial intelligence that could mimic so many of the characteristics of sentient human beings without being able to make even the smallest decisions.
4.The army assembled to fight the Gungans was substantially different from the droids on the TradeFed battleships or the units in Theed. Those droids might have been low-end units, as opposed to the higher-end units in Theed which had substantial local intelligence (like normal droids, such as R2 units and interpreter droids). The droids who fought the Gungans certainly seemed to exhibit a lower level of individual initiative. However, this would suggest that some of the droids on the planet (particularly the commander units in Theed) would have continued to function after the destruction of the control ship. According to the (non-canon) novelization, this didn't happen.
5.The droids were powered by the droid control ship, which had some technology for directly transmitting power to the droids in some manner that is difficult to intercept. This would explain the rapid shutdown after the destruction of the control ship while also explaining the apparent presence of autonomous intelligence.
In conclusion, explanation #1 and #4 are the best candidates. The official SW cross-sections books explicitly disagrees with both interpretations, as does the SWd20 Core Rules but both are flagrantly inconsistent with the behaviour of the infantry droids in the film.
Aust Diamondew
First Post
Is it possible George Lucas just didn't really think it through?
Breakdaddy
First Post
Aust Diamondew said:
You should earn a prize for this bit of insight. It not only is possible, but LIKELY. Just like at the end of RoTS in the jedi temple when Obi Wan calls Palpatine "The Emperor" when he has no way of knowing that somewhere across Coruscant Palpatine has just declared himself emperor. Of course, some will try to explain it away as "he knew through the force" (which is hooey, honestly), but the bottom line is: even our old buddy George can make a mistake or overlook a detail.
Ankh-Morpork Guard
First Post
Operator said:
No, they don't continue operating for a few seconds. Because of the nature of how films work, time has to be altered so you can see the droids shutting down after cutting away from the space battle. Really, what kind of movie would it make if you just suddenly cut to a bunch of unmoving droids instead of actually SHOWING them stop? It would be odd and wouldn't make sense.
Again, no they don't. While I love and will always embrace EU, the movies still have the final say. And, in the movies, a control ship/facility is never destroyed, so the signal is never cut off.
Why should it? There's an absolutely HUGE fleet in orbit around Coruscant, and we don't know if an entire ship is even necessary for controlling them. For all we know, all the ships have small processors than can do the work for the security/pilot droids on board.
Simply put, the droids cannot THINK or OPERATE without the control ship/facility. They just don't work. No, that isn't a good thing. But their advantage is in numbers, not intelligence. Its why, when the Clone Wars were begun, the B2 droids were built, which were much better fighting units and could operate without the need for a control ship. You're trying too hard to rationalize what is and isn't possible, while bypassing the simple truths of what we know.
Look, I love the B1 droids. They're most definitely my favorite droid designs in the six movies. I can't even explain why, I just love them. I would LOVE to have a player play one, but by everything we've seen in the films, been told by the films, and know by the supplementary references books and d20 books, they are NOT in any way autonomous. Does it make perfect sense? Of course not! This is Star Wars! We can't rationalize every little detail for nearly anything! But the point is that all the basic B1 droids are 'dumb terminals' as you describe them. If they weren't, why waste the time building the B2 droids which can actually work on their own? THAT was the B2's big advantage, not firepower. The advantage was in intelligence, thinking, and learning ability.
But Leia's metal bikini, Luke's missing hand, and the Stormtrooper that hits his head make perfect sense. Jabba's a hedonistic slug, lightsaber's cauterize wounds so there's no blood and his hand is easily replaced with a cybernetic arm, and the Stormtrooper just plain couldn't see well.
But with 3PO, its a completely irrational thing that Lucas obviously didn't think about. And why should he care about the technical details? It was a good moment for the movie, and simply doesn't need any more explanation than that. Lucas doesn't make these movies from a technical standpoint. He never has. We have to accept the small amounts of technical info he gives us as how things work, even if they don't completely make sense. But this one is definitely held up by all the movies and supplementary material.
