D&D 5E Swimming in armor

S

Sunseeker

Guest
I do not think it does if the table is using any sort of encumbrance rules.

An explorers kit weighs (IIRC) 69 pounds. That's a lot of weight, especially for those 10 Str mages, warlocks, and other caster-types. If they drop that pack underwater, they lose it (typically). Even some of the other kits are fairly heavy.

So I think that this level of verisimilitude is equally penalizing for most PCs of most classes.

My point was more than caster-types usually have a way to avoid swimming all-together.

Though I do agree that encumbrance rules, especially for gold and gear, are not very well enforced, or at least I don't get the feeling they're well enforced until it becomes silly. (No, you cannot single-handedly carry the corpse of the dragon to the smith).

Not the same thing as the human body has buoyancy, carrying is not the same as wearing.
Carrying the baby above water would actually cause the child to be more encumbering (due to keeping at least a single hand above water at all times doing nothing more than holding the child) and weigh more than an equally buoyant object in or on top of the water. Indeed even plate (not accounting for the layers underneath absorbing water) is likely to WEIGH less underwater than above, and quite possibly be less restrictive on your movement since some of its weight would be distributed to the water itsself.

Maybe.

What I find is that in practice, verisimilitude regarding 'epic adventuring' tends to kick heavy armor brutes to the curb, but not necessarily fighters and other mundane heroes. It's not merely swimming that presents a challenge to a would be heavy armor wearer, but anything outside of battle on a level plain or combat on the tournament field. He's slower. He's more likely to trip and stumble. He tires more easily. He has greater difficulty climbing, swimming, and squeezing through tight paces. You are more exposed to deadly heat and humidity and metal armor can be very uncomfortable in the cold. The jungles, caves, ruins, chasms, and mountainous slopes were adventuring takes place tend not to be the sort of places where you want to wear very heavy armor. As a result, most players in my game of any class tend to prefer to avoid heavy armor and compromise on some lighter form of protection. Giving up a few points of AC in exchange for greater mobility usually works out as a good trade. It's not necessarily realistic that this lighter armor is less problematic, but it does have verisimilitude and we do know that real world adventurers - say Cortez, tended to prefer lighter armor.

But favoring light or medium armor over heavier armor doesn't necessarily favor the spell-casters. Clerics end up suffering more than fighters, because unlike fighters, strength is usually a 4th stat for a cleric and dexterity a 6th stat. As such, they can't make up for the problems associated with armor nearly as much as a fighter can. Indeed, since fighters can more readily afford to put points in skills toward swim, climb, and jump and really any other physical skill than a cleric, it's usually fairly trivial for a mid-level fighter to counteract whatever penalties come with his armor. (Under my house rules, this is even more true, so that it's certainly true that one way that mundane classes like fighter, rogue, explorer and hunter excel spellcasters is that they have more reliable mobility with no reliance on spending spell slots to make up for physical shortcomings.) And indeed, since classes like Wizard and Sorcerer likewise can't afford to spend on physical abilities and wear no armor, saying that they aren't as penalized when swimming is making a virtue out of a problem. It's not unusual for the sorcerer with no ranks in swim and an 8 strength score, to have more problems swimming than the fighter in his much heavier armor - after all, the fighter with a +13 or higher swim score could swim like an Olympic athlete (if not Aquaman at higher levels) if he took off the armor. And a sorcerer that spends spells to swim, improve AC, and otherwise defend his person from harm is generally leaving himself with reduced combat options and at risk of running out of spell slots.

I suppose it is true that using special abilities to ensure you can walk-on-water or similar is going to whittle down your room for other spells, but it's worth noting that a highly skilled fighter (in 3rd especially) is also a very MAD fighter. Sure they can push points towards certain scores, but due to the skill-point system awarding points based on intelligence, after the initial bump from your base scores, a fighter is going to require a high INT to keep being good with swimming, in fact it might serve him better to have a moderate STR (16) and have a high int, in order to keep up throughout the leveling process.

I do wish STR had a few more uses in the skill-set than it usually does in every edition. Sure, things like encumbrance show up, but those rules are poorly followed at most tables IME. Though I'm honestly not sure what "skill" str could really benefit. Hammering? Fist-bumping?
 
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KarinsDad

Adventurer
My point was more than caster-types usually have a way to avoid swimming all-together.

Usually?

I think that while this is possible in the game, it is probably not as likely as it might seem, especially if the PCs are not prepared for water. For example, Bards, Paladins, Warlocks, and Wizards do not get Water Walk. Yes, there are more than one way to skin a cat (alter self, fly, misty step) and druids are definitely more prepared for this than other classes, but unless the PC is prepared for such an event and is high enough level to cast such a spell (and has slots available, and is willing to burn the slot), many casters at many tables are often going to be in the same boat as everyone else. Maybe not at high level, but definitely at lower levels. If the party is prepared for water, then I would also expect potions to be available for the non-casters as well.


Edit: As a side note, I think that DMs should occasionally have "drop into a body of water" traps or tunnels of water to get to the next section of the dungeon, or other water hazards that defy the normal use of spells to avoid water. For example, if the party is crossing a bridge and a trap on it spills one or more PCs into the water, it should be likely that any PC dropped might be an unprepared spell caster.
 
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Uller

Adventurer
When I was in the military we were training in a swamp. My buddy accidentally stepped into a very deep hole and promptly sunk. The only thing that saved his life was he managed to grab my foot on his way down (I was standing right beside the hole). He wasn't a bad swimmer and was very strong (much stronger than I am). If it's that hard to swim in modern body armor for a guy that eventually went on to become an Army Ranger (and last time I saw him was being recruited by Green Berets), I doubt most people could easily manage it, especially under duress.

I'm thinking Medium armor would be swim at disadvantage or make athletics check to remove armor while sinking. In heavy armor both checks are at disadvantage (and that seems generous).
 

Hand of Evil

Hero
Epic
I guess you can come up with a new STAT: Buoyancy - this could be a Negative or Positive number. Negative being that you sink and positive you float, armor would counter this number and the result could be applied to a swimming roll.
 

Coredump

Explorer
Weight is different than encumbrance.

Trying to swim in shirt jeans and shoes is really hard; putting those same items in a back pack isn't nearly as hard.

It is amazing how much simple shoes hinders swimming. (You will notice those 'samurai' swimmers had bare legs and feet).
 

Celebrim

Legend
Though I'm honestly not sure what "skill" str could really benefit.

Strength in 3.X improves swim, climb, and jump. It also improves your ability to break and smash things ("hammering", as you put it).

Some additional suggestions (I actually use):

Porter: Increase your capacity to lift and carry things without hindrance through practice.
Run: Increase your base movement rate through practice, treating 'fast movement' as an improvable skill rather than a class ability.

You could probably also treat the ability to break things as a skill you could improve in.

I'd note that enforcing encumbrance tends to make some spell casters somewhat MAD as well. For example, one of my players created a cleric with 8 strength as his first character, only to discover that wearing any armor at all was often problematic. So his replacement character after the first died had a 13 strength, largely to ensure that carrying capacity was high enough to allow armor to be comfortably worn. As a consequence though, CON has had to suffer somewhat which makes the character fragile in other ways.

Really, unless you can fly with excellent maneuverability all the time, it's very hard to avoid mundane threats to mobility - slippery slopes, water, mud, etc. It's even easier to counter that threat to game balance than it is to buff mundane classes up to balance. Simply reducing the practicality of the flight spell in terms of speed, maneuverability rating, and duration tends to eliminate it as a win button. For example, in my game the 3rd level version of 'fly' gives you winged flight at speed 60 with an average maneuverability rating. You can't hover, you can't fly vertically up a shaft, you need a concentration check to cast a spell with an 'S' component, and you can't fly at all if you have lost 2/3rds of your hit points. The 4th level version looks like the SRD fly, except that there isn't a free feather fall when it is dispelled, so make sure you have a spell slot open in the event you get hit by targeted dispel magic. And so forth. And it's also worth noting that if you do fly, you actually pick up mobility hazards that you don't have if you are on the ground. By the rules, wind is a much bigger hazard to a flying creature than it is to one using land based movement.

Meanwhile, I've got a player of a multi-classed rogue that can bounce around like Yoda in the prequels and basically can move up and along walls or leap obstacles at will and at high speed.

So, if you are actually using the environment as a consistent hazard, yes, spell-casters will have more powerful "answers" to any particular challenge, but they do so at the cost of eating into their power. For example, in my current campaign the PC's are on a boat in the semi-tropics (soon to be the tropics) in the summer, with day time highs above 95F and very high humidity. I'm using my own rules on heat exposure and applying it daily in the form of 'non-lethal damage' that reduces each characters maximum hit points. Now, they have a cleric that can cast 'endure elements' which gives a 100% immunity to this penalty, but what they've decided to do is to only use this spell slot to protect... the three spell-casters. The three martial characters have high constitutions, high hit points, the Endurance feat, 5 or more ranks in survival and so forth that tend to mean that the heat exhaustion penalties for them are tolerable - 2-5 points of damage per day out of 50 or 90 hit points isn't a big deal. By comparison, some of the spellcasters were taking 6-12 points of damage out of 40 hit points. So, again, yes, the spellcaster has the better answer and yes it's a huge resource to the party that Endure Elements is available, but... that's three less spell-slots available for other needs. At some point the ability to act as party support is being compromised by the consistent need to support yourself as the more delicate and less skillful member of the party.

Granted, this situation is far more slanted toward the spellcasters in 3.X with its more powerful spells, its lack of protection for martial silos, and its extreme and unwarranted conservative approach to how useful skills are or how skillful you can be if you aren't a spellcaster. The "only spellcasters are allowed to have good things" problem is real if you are going by RAW. But I don't agree that is the only approach, and it appears 5e is trying to correct it.
 

neobolts

Explorer
River fisherman are in real danger if the water gets above there waders. They are drowning deaths from this every year. I would imagine river+suit of armor could get very deadly very fast.

That said, 5e is big on heroics and simple solutions, so something as simple as disavantage should suffice.
 

StooNasty

First Post
I swim 2 miles a day and its more about technique than strength. Adding armor would affect buoyancy, create drag, and restrict movement making strength more of a factor. That being said I could probably do 1or 2 laps(50-100 yards) before I sank. Thats 30-60 squares on a grid I believe. That's dedicating alot of time to swimming however and not fighting.
 

Kikuras

First Post
It's important to keep an eye on reality but we need to remember that too much reality breaks the game. Anyone who says "You can't do ________ in real life" while at the D&D table is at risk of having their spells not work. That's not to say characters wearing heavy armor shouldn't drown, only that we need to allow them a little benefit of the doubt when in the process of determining what happens to them. To apply reality too strongly serves to functionally discourages certain classes, even if they're technically allowed. There's already too many bards, sorcerers, and monks...
 


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