Sword & Board PrC?

[The Souljourner]

No it doesn't you just get a +1 Heavy Spiked Shield of Bashing and use that as your primary weapon, then you are doing the same base damage as a two handed greatsword in you primary hand, and the feats you spend on TWF are all extra damage on top.

3 things:
1.) You aren't getting 1.5x strength bonus on the shield
2.) You aren't getting 2 for 1 power attack on the shield
3.) This requires using a +1 enchantment on the shield, so you're already unbalancing things by requiring that. What's to keep the greatswordsman from putting flaming on his greatsword for approximately the same investment?

-Nate

 

[Old Gumphrey]

I stopped at 6th because that's all it took to get ITWF...so basically by then you have 3 gravy feats. You can even focus/spec in your shield bash instead of the shield spec/ward if you want to go more offensive.

Bagpuss would be spot on except the off hand won't get any added PA damage.

2H vs. TWF...it's the price you pay. In all honesty TWF totally sucks for people who don't have extra damage dice like sneak attack EXCEPT shield bashers. Yeah, greatsword guy gets all those bonuses, but he doesn't get oh...+5 AC from a decked out heavy shield. It's not 2d6+7 vs. greatsword...it's 2d6+7 + 5 AC vs. the greatsword

A few things though...light shields don't get PA damage, and heavy shields are one-handed...so that carries a -4/-4 penalty. I've never understood the penalty in the first place TBH...if you are trained to TWF why are you taking penalties? It's really not *that* difficult that all humans just inherently suck at it; when I was a student in kung fu there were several guys that were proficient in dual wielding the chinese broadsword, and in weapons sparring, it was more difficult to fight them, because they had...two damn swords.

TWF is nice for those who have sneak attack style damage. They aren't worried about PA though, because they tend to have balls for STR stats and even if they don't they're taking things like WF and II.

So basically if you want the PA damage of a 2H you have to wield 1H (not light) weapons and you take -4/-4; this is after taking an extra feat every 6 levels. At that point you are doing the same damage...but that's if both of your gimped attacks hit.

Fighter A with a +2 greatsword and 18 str vs. Fighter B with +1 longswords and 18 str, using 5 PA. Both have specialization.

Like a +12 / 2d6+20 vs. +8 / 1d8+12 and +8 / 1d8+9

So after using an extra feat and having a high dex score that you really don't need (and thus likely lowering your Con and even Str), you're doing 2 points higher on average as the 2H fighter...if you hit twice with -4 to hit and wield identical weapons.

Wow, that does suck.

Just get an animated heavy shield and greatsword people in the face.

 

[Bagpuss]

3 things:
1.) You aren't getting 1.5x strength bonus on the shield

No but then you are getting an off hand attack at x0.5 Strength bonus as well.

2.) You aren't getting 2 for 1 power attack on the shield

No, but then you aren't getting a shield bonus from your Greatsword.

3.) This requires using a +1 enchantment on the shield, so you're already unbalancing things by requiring that. What's to keep the greatswordsman from putting flaming on his greatsword for approximately the same investment?

+1 Heavy Spiked Shield of Bashing, 2d6+1 base damage +1 to attack rolls. Plus offhand light weapon extra for extra 1d6 damage. 4,200gp approx.

+1 Flaming Greatsword, 2d6+1 (+1d6 flaming) 8350gp.

So my option is 4000gp less. Not approximately the same investment.

Plus if I go the Agile Shield Fighter route my off hand weapon doesn't even need to be light so I can get an extra 1d8, or have a Flail for tripping, disarming options, etc. Don't need to worry about Dex either.

For raw damage a Greatsword is pretty cool, but with Shield Charge/Shield Ward and the like, I can trip and opponent and never fear being tripped in return, I can restrict my opponent to a standard attack action, while I full attack him.

 

[the_mighty_agrippa]

I have often considered creating a feat high up the shield tree that would allow a shield user to forgoe a shield slam in lieu of a Ref save to block an attack.

 

[Darklone]

They provided many feats for the sword&boarders... but all that only made the normal TWF dudes worse.

Well, TWF is balanced by sneak attack ... hmmm. Don't like that.

 

[The Souljourner]

Personally, I think that one TWF feat should get you what is currently the entire feat chain, automatically as you become eligible for them. That keeps people from just picking up a second weapon and being awesome with it, but it doesn't really suck away the feats for someone who wants to do it. Plus, it recognizes the fact that each TWF feat is worse than the last. If you saw a feat that just said "This feat requires 3 other feats. You gain one attack at -15 to hit"... you'd think someone at WoTC was totally insane.

As for sword and board, Yes, there are several feats these days, but honestly, the vast majority of them suck. Like the one that lets you throw your shield.... honestly, who throws a shield? It's an even worse idea than throwing a weapon, and that's pretty awful by itself in D&D. Or how about the one that lets you take attacks of opportunity while fighting in full defense. Yeah, woo, that's fantastic... oh wait, no, that SUCKS.

There are exactly 4 decent shield feats at the moment:
Shield Specialization (actually kinda sucks, but it's the crappy entry feat, and to be fair, it's better than Dodge)
Improved Shield Bash (decent)
Agile Shield Fighter (decent, but lacks the automatic progression)
Shield Ward (awesome)

... um... yeah. That's it. Granted, that's a lot better than it was before PHBII, but still, come on!

-Nate

 

[Moon-Lancer]

I have often considered creating a feat high up the shield tree that would allow a shield user to forgoe a shield slam in lieu of a Ref save to block an attack.

I don't mean to demean, but isn't that what a tower shield is for?

 

[Evilhalfling]

One of the best house rules for shields I've seen floated on these boards (to make S&B more attractive) is to give the 2-1 AC per point of BAB (max +10 AC for 5 points of BAB) for use of the Combat Expertise feat. Suddenly shields are looking pretty good.

I prefer a less drastic change - give shield wielders +1 ac for fighting defensively and +2 AC when taking full defense, with a note that this does not stack with the identical benefits gained
from 5 ranks of tumble.

This stems from my experience in using a shield, as well as the need for more balance for the style. Actively hiding behind a shield is something anyone can do, it does not require CE.

Also don't forget the feat parrying shield from lords of madness - it adds your shield bonus to your touch AC (although I tend to HR that it has a prerequisite of shield focus)

 

[The Souljourner]

I prefer a less drastic change - give shield wielders +1 ac for fighting defensively and +2 AC when taking full defense, with a note that this does not stack with the identical benefits gained from 5 ranks of tumble.

I've thought of that too and like that idea and definitely think it should be the default. It's not much of a boost, though.

Also don't forget the feat parrying shield from lords of madness - it adds your shield bonus to your touch AC (although I tend to HR that it has a prerequisite of shield focus)

There's a feat in PHBII called Shield Ward that does the same thing (adds to touch AC), but also adds to your rolls to resist bullrush, trip, overrun, disarm, and grapple. Requires Shield Specialization (+1 ac with type of shield - light, heavy, tower), which is also in PHBII.

I think the 2 for 1 AC is just as viable a change as the power attack change... more so really, because there's almost no edge cases to combat expertise where it's just a no brainer to max it out, unlike power attack. Also, additional AC is only useful if someone attacks you, which you don't control, but you do control when you attack and use power attack. Plus, power attack requires strength, which pretty much any fighter will have at 13, but 13 int is much less common.

-Nate

 

[Darklone]

Actually, I liked the Shield Specialisation from the 3.0 Kalamar PG most. +1 to shield bonus with one shield and +2 while fighting defensively or full defensive.