Swordmage AC bad for a defender?

[Felon]

OK, I'm just doing this off the top of my head, so maybe I'm forgetting to factor something. Help me out.

A swordmage only gets cloth, and then he gets an AC boost from his intelligence and then another boost from wielding a blade. So, say at 14th level, we have:

10 base
+7 level bonus
+3 cloth armor bonus
+6 Int bonus
+3 swordmage AC boost (one-handed blade w/nothing in other hand)
= 29 AC

An equivalent level sword-and-board defender in plate has:

10
+7 level bonus
+13 plater armor bonus
+2 shield
= 32 AC

Now, most heavy-armor defenders have to feat their way from scale to plate. Is there a feat or something that gives the swordmage a class-specific AC boost?

 

[DarkLord Of DForce]

Not sure about how he got there, but my son's level 12 Swordmage has 28 armor. In the group/campaign that we are playing in now, only 1 other player has more.

 

[yesnomu]

Swordmages get leather (+2), and many spend a feat on Greater Swordmage Warding in Paragon, which boosts all defenses by +1/+2 at epic. They stay with Fighters in scale, and can spend a feat to stay with Paladins in plate.

EDIT: They may also spend a feat for either Hide armor or Improved SM Warding, which is another +1 AC.

 

[Mort_Q]

A swordmage only gets cloth... An equivalent level sword-and-board defender in plate...

Swordmages start with cloth and leather proficiencies... only Paladins start with plate proficiency.

 

[Victim]

OK, I'm just doing this off the top of my head, so maybe I'm forgetting to factor something. Help me out.

A swordmage only gets cloth, and then he gets an AC boost from his intelligence and then another boost from wielding a blade. So, say at 14th level, we have:

10 base
+7 level bonus
+3 cloth armor bonus
+6 Int bonus
+3 swordmage AC boost (one-handed blade w/nothing in other hand)
= 29 AC

An equivalent level sword-and-board defender in plate has:

10
+7 level bonus
+13 plater armor bonus
+2 shield
= 32 AC

Now, most heavy-armor defenders have to feat their way from scale to plate. Is there a feat or something that gives the swordmage a class-specific AC boost?

Yes. The swordmage is not restricted to Cloth, just like the fighter isn't restricted to Scale. So when the fighter upgrades to Plate for +1 AC, the Swordmage can upgrade to Leather for +2 (or take Unarmed Defense). The fighter is already in the best armor, so he can only take the specialization feat for +1. The Swordmage has several other feats that can improve Swordmage Warding, and/or can make the jump to Hide. Greater Swordmage Warding adds to all defenses, for instance, so it's equivalent to armor spec and paragon defenses.

So the fighter goes Plate and then Plate Spec for 33 and two feats. The swordmage goes Leather, Hide, Greater Swordmage Warding and also has 33. He did spend one more feat. OTOH, he also has no speed penalty and an armor penalty that's 3 points better.

 

[Mirtek]

Actually swordmages are the AC-kings. No other class can reach an AC as high as a swordmage. A level 14 swordmage could have:

10 base
+7 level bonus
+6 armor bonus (+3 hide armor)
+1 feat bonus (greater swordmage warding)
+6 Int bonus (18 starting Int, improved at 4/8/11/14)
+3 swordmage AC boost (one-handed blade w/nothing in other hand)
= 33 AC

An equivalent level sword-and-board defender in plate has:

10 base
+7 level bonus
+11 armor bonus (+3 plate armor)
+2 shield
+1 feat (either armor spec or shield spec)
= 31 AC.


At level 30 this could be:

swordmage:
10 base
+15 level bonus
+11 armor bonus (+6 elderhide armor)
+2 feat bonus (greater swordmage warding)
+8 Int bonus (18 starting Int, improved at 4/8/11/14/18/21/24/28)
+3 swordmage AC boost (one-handed blade w/nothing in other hand)
= 49 AC

sword-and-board defender in plate
10 base
+15 level bonus
+20 armor bonus (+6 godplate armor)
+2 shield
+1 feat (either armor spec or shield spec)
= 48 AC.

[...] the Swordmage can upgrade to Leather for +2 (or take Unarmed Defense).[...]So the fighter goes Plate and then Plate Spec for 33 and two feats. The swordmage goes Leather, Hide, Greater Swordmage Warding and also has 33. He did spend one more feat. OTOH, he also has no speed penalty and an armor penalty that's 3 points better.

Swordmage have leather armor proficiency from the start. So the swordmage in the example as also only spend 2 feats, just like the fighter. However the Greater Warding feat combines armor specialization and paragon defenses in a single feat, so the swordmage has effectively one feat more.

 

[mneme]

Actually swordmages are the AC-kings. No other class can reach an AC as high as a swordmage. A level 14 swordmage could have (33 AC)
...
At level 30 this could be: (49 AC)

...

While I agree in principle, is this true? Seems like Avengers and Whirling barbarians -can- do better. They just shouldn't (as their AC stat isn't their primary attack stat).

(almost) Maxed out Avenger AC @ level 14:
10 base
+7 level bonus
+3 armor bonus (+3 drowmesh)
+2 feat bonus (unarmed defenses)
+6 Int bonus (18 starting Int, improved at 4/8/11/14)
+3 Armor of Faith (class feature -- with two handed weapon)
+2 Improved Armor of Faith
= 33 AC

(almost) Maxed out Whirling Barbarian AC @ level 14:
10 base
+7 level bonus
+6 armor bonus (+3 hide armor)
+6 Dex bonus (18 starting Dex, improved at 4/8/11/14)
+2 Barbarian Agility (class feature -- with two handed weapon)
+1 defensive weapon
+1 two weapon defense
= 33 AC

At level 30 this could be:

Avenger:
10 base
+15 level bonus
+8 armor bonus (+6 starweave armor)
+2 feat bonus (unarmed defenses)
+8 Int bonus (18 starting Int, improved at 4/8/11/14/18/21/24/28)
+3 Armor of Faith
+3 Improved Armor of Faith
= 49 AC

Whirling Barbarian:
10 base
+15 level bonus
+11 armor bonus (+6 elderhide armor)
+8 Dex bonus (18 starting Dex, improved at 4/8/11/14/18/21/24/28)
+3 Barbarian Agility
+1 Two Weapon Defense
+1 Defensive Weapon
= 49 AC


Both of these are also two feat builds (as the Barb needs two weapon fighting and two weapon defense) with equivalent AC to the similar Swordmage. Of course, they're not defenders; they can't use their AC like a weapon like defenders can. Of course, 16/16/16 whirling barbarian could squeak up to 50 AC at 30th level (second skin), it's just a -terrible- way to build a character.

 

[Klaus]

OK, I'm just doing this off the top of my head, so maybe I'm forgetting to factor something. Help me out.

A swordmage only gets cloth, and then he gets an AC boost from his intelligence and then another boost from wielding a blade. So, say at 14th level, we have:

10 base
+7 level bonus
+3 cloth armor bonus
+6 Int bonus
+3 swordmage AC boost (one-handed blade w/nothing in other hand)
= 29 AC

An equivalent level sword-and-board defender in plate has:

10
+7 level bonus
+13 plater armor bonus
+2 shield
= 32 AC

Now, most heavy-armor defenders have to feat their way from scale to plate. Is there a feat or something that gives the swordmage a class-specific AC boost?

So, as others upthread pointed out:

- Swordmages' primary stat is an AC-boosting one (Int).
- Have leather proficiency.
- Have a class feature that is 1 point better than a heavy shield (which can be improved with feats).

Also, it isn't in the best interest of the Swordmage to engage his mark directly. He can mark an opponent and engage someone else, trusting his -2 penalty from the mark to protect his allies. A fighter, OTOH, HAS to engage his mark.

 

[Victim]

Swordmage have leather armor proficiency from the start. So the swordmage in the example as also only spend 2 feats, just like the fighter. However the Greater Warding feat combines armor specialization and paragon defenses in a single feat, so the swordmage has effectively one feat more.

You know, I actually didn't bother to double check that.

However, the level 14 fighter can be using +3 Githplate armor to get the +13 AC. Also, Shields do add to Reflex defense and can add to Fort with a feat in PHB3. So it's not like the Swordmage is the only one getting NAD bonuses from his defensive boosts.

A heavy armor character can also go Agile if they can spare the expense. That puts them a bit higher while not bloodied.

 

[Felon]

Thanks, guys.