Swordmage class

[Khaalis]

Quick FYI, do you realize that the doc is locked? I sent a permission request.

 

[Khaalis]

Without seeing it all, here are just a few comments on the notes posted.
Oh, and thanks for the co-cred. I just hope my suggestions are agreeable to moving the class in the right direction.

I added greatswords to the available weapon proficiencies, in order to better support the Great Weapon Fighting Style. I removed scimitars to keep the number of weapons consistent, but am willing to add them back in if people greatly desire it.

May as well leave them in. I think continuity of the design is more important than the specific number of weapon choice. You could simply state "all swords" as well rather than naming every sword proficiency (especially for those who will use additional swords like Katana in their games, even if just as reskins).

Similarly, I changed the scimitar given as an option in starting equipment to a longsword.

Even with adding scimitars (or all swords) back in, I'd keep this as longswords are by far the most common. If an individual game is say running in an arabian setting the DM can change that on the fly.

I changed Swordmage Warding to provide only a +1 AC bonus while fighting with a bonded weapon and +2 with one hand free.

Without seeing the full text, this basically sounds like just another Fighting Style. Knid of a cros between Defense and Dueling. This might just actually be better as a Swordmage only Fighting Style that replaces Defense.

I'll read it over in more detail once I have access.

 

[fireinthedust]

1st point: glad to see you're both posting to this. I was worried my suggestions killed the thread!

2) Writing out my own variant, I'm finding this is a challenging class to work up. Lots of options, lots of history to draw from, hard to keep it together. I see now the Paladin approach, and it's not bad.

3) If Khaalis is getting credit, I'll have to work hard to get my two cents in, too!

On that note, let me show you two what I've been working on so far. Filling in the gaps of an arcane tradition is hard enough, so good on you!

 

[fireinthedust]

Here's what I've got so far: Spellblade Wizard Arcane Tradition:

It's got my favourite Swordmage features, admittedly. Arcane Aegis may be a bit of an issue, as it's adding Int bonus to anything whenever you're holding your sword. I think some kind of restrictions should be in place, like you must have spell slots, or only when you are aware of a target, that sort of thing.

I prefer my Swordmages to have the ability to learn lots of spells, like Wizards, due to their Int bonus (otherwise it should just be Charisma, like a Sorcerer or Bard). EK bothers me for that reason. Magic is magic, you're studying it, and they won't be more powerful simply due to variety if they have limited spell slots or spell levels. And having a type of treasure to collect is a bonus, so why gimp *every* class other than Wizard?
BTW: that's what bothered me about 4e: limit to what Wizards and others can know on top of the limited resources per day of powers they can use. If you can only do, say, 3 powers a day, giving players who show up a wider range of powers to choose from for those 3 is just good business.


That said: I didn't see last time if you had Smite on there for your version, and I strongly suggest that feature for a Swordmage. Like the Paladin, smiting people is basically what they do. If they're frontline, Swordmages will need 1d10HD, too, considering they don't have much armor, and the Aegis was meant to give them the benefit of Plate, like the Paladin.

 

[Nivenus]

Quick FYI, do you realize that the doc is locked? I sent a permission request.

My bad. I thought I set it to public. It should be fixed now.

Without seeing it all, here are just a few comments on the notes posted.
Oh, and thanks for the co-cred. I just hope my suggestions are agreeable to moving the class in the right direction.

May as well leave them in. I think continuity of the design is more important than the specific number of weapon choice. You could simply state "all swords" as well rather than naming every sword proficiency (especially for those who will use additional swords like Katana in their games, even if just as reskins).

I'll add scimitars back in. Theoretically I could say "all swords" but the 5e rules don't actually define swords per se (unlike 4e which had weapon type as well as proficiency type) so it'd require some fudging. All "melee slashing weapons" might work, but then that leaves out rapiers and shortswords and adds in battleaxes, greataxes, whips, and glaives.

Without seeing the full text, this basically sounds like just another Fighting Style. Knid of a cros between Defense and Dueling. This might just actually be better as a Swordmage only Fighting Style that replaces Defense.

Hmm... I'll see if I can give it a more magical feel than. It's pretty close to the original feature as it stands in 4e but I see your point.

1st point: glad to see you're both posting to this. I was worried my suggestions killed the thread!

Oh no worries; I've just been very, very busy with a lot of oth

2) Writing out my own variant, I'm finding this is a challenging class to work up. Lots of options, lots of history to draw from, hard to keep it together. I see now the Paladin approach, and it's not bad.

As far as 5e inspiration goes (rather than 4e or 3e, which are also in there) paladin's definitely the main model, though I also looked at the Eldritch Knight archetype, rangers (another magical warrior class), wizards (Int-based magic), and bards (the only case so far in 5e of an arcane caster with significant non-magical features). I also took a brief look over the magus class from Pathfinder, which is another take on doing an arcane warrior class, though I didn't really end up using very much from it.

Here's what I've got so far: Spellblade Wizard Arcane Tradition:

Pretty good. It's more similar to the 4e bladesinger (a wizard variant) than what I'm going for but it's not a bad take on its own. My approach is to make the swordmage class more like paladins or rangers in the sense that it sacrifices some spellcasting ability in exchange for martial features, but just as the Eldritch Knight is a good approach for someone who wants to add some magic to their fighter, your idea for Spellblade isn't a bad choice for those who want a wizard who could hold their own a bit more in a melee.

It's got my favourite Swordmage features, admittedly. Arcane Aegis may be a bit of an issue, as it's adding Int bonus to anything whenever you're holding your sword. I think some kind of restrictions should be in place, like you must have spell slots, or only when you are aware of a target, that sort of thing.

Hmm... your take on Arcane Aegis might provide a way to make Swordmage Warding feel more magical and not just like an extra Fighting Style. I'll think on this.

I prefer my Swordmages to have the ability to learn lots of spells, like Wizards, due to their Int bonus (otherwise it should just be Charisma, like a Sorcerer or Bard). EK bothers me for that reason. Magic is magic, you're studying it, and they won't be more powerful simply due to variety if they have limited spell slots or spell levels. And having a type of treasure to collect is a bonus, so why gimp *every* class other than Wizard?

I went back and forth in my original design over whether or not to make swordmages more like wizards or sorcerers/bard when it came to casting. On the one hand, I agree with you that the Intelligence basis for magic sort of makes it seem like they should be versatile. On the other hand, the swordmage's entire schtick is casting magic in combat and that feels an awful lot like spontaneous casting to me. Ultimately, I chose to go with spontaneous casting and a limited number of spells known (rather than versatile casting like clerics, paladins, druids, or wizards), because it's what the duskblade class (the closest thing to a 3e swordmage) went with. Also, swordmages have never had spellbooks.

That said: I didn't see last time if you had Smite on there for your version, and I strongly suggest that feature for a Swordmage. Like the Paladin, smiting people is basically what they do.

A large part of that is that I don't want to make swordmages too similar to paladins, otherwise you might as well just reflavor a paladin as an arcane caster. The other reason is that I gave swordmages a lot of spells that basically fulfill a similar function.

If they're frontline, Swordmages will need 1d10HD, too, considering they don't have much armor, and the Aegis was meant to give them the benefit of Plate, like the Paladin.

Giving swordmages d8 hit dice was largely to compensate for them having a pretty powerful 1st class feature in weapon bond. But if you think they're a bit underpowered without it I could boost them back up to d10. Or I could bring Swordmage Warding back up to +2/+3 to provide them with a little bit of extra protection.

 

[Khaalis]

Ok, going over it again I think we've nailed down a lot of the class. Just a few sticking points. This is where I think we'll veer off and have to slightly different final versions.

on SwordMage Warding...
You can project a magical ward around yourself, affording you some extra protection against enemy attacks. You gain a +1 bonus to AC while conscious and wielding a martial weapon. This bonus increases to +2 if you are wielding the weapon in one hand and the other hand is free.

I understand that you feel on some level that this is an archtypical feature of the class, and its one thing we have to disagree on. I really don't see it as anything special at all when compared to Fighting Styles.
* I'd simply rename it Warding Defense and put it under Fighting Styles as is, while removing the normal Defense option.
* I personally can't see where this as a class feature is better or more "magically evocative" than Aegis, which is what I'd use as the level feature here. It gives customization of the type of swordmage to play (offense, defense, control).
* I also still don't understand why a class feature you feel is Central to the class - discriminates against users of 2-handed weapons.
* Even raising the bonuses to +2/+3, with the restrictions listed, this just isnt a good enough class feature.


Honestly, I think this will push me to doing my "minor variant" version, starting with this change, then adding Aegis in as the class feature for my version.

FIGHTING STYLE
Eldtrich Warding
Starting at 1st level, using your magic combined with the magic of your Weapon Bond feature, you can project a magical ward around yourself. At all times you gain a +1 bonus to AC while conscious. If you are wielding your bonded weapon, this bonus increases to +2.

NOTE: This would replace the standard Fighter's Defense fighting style option.



However, if you are heart set on SWORDMAGE WARDING as a 1st level iconic feature, it needs work. So lets see...

Eldritch Warding
Starting at 1st level, as a reaction to being attacked, you can activate a magical ward of defense on yourself. This force ward lasts until you lose Concentration or 10 minutes whichever comes first, till you dismiss it as part of any other Action, or you fall unconscious. This ward grants you a magical bonus to AC equal to your Proficiency bonus.
Additionally, when you take the Dodge action on subsequent turns, you can make a melee weapon attack as a bonus action.
Once you use this feature, you can't use it again until you complete a short or long rest.


* It now acts like a concentration spell, not a fighting style.
* It scales with level, making it more iconic and useful.
* Give a slight edge when using Dodge. Cant get more "defendery" than that.
* Limited by 1/encounter (short rest).

 

[RhaezDaevan]

I think the point of giving a bigger boost to AC when you have a free hand is because the swordmage is often depicted without a shield, so without a greater boost to AC everyone will just use two-handed weapons as there's no reason not to.

 

[Khaalis]

I think the point of giving a bigger boost to AC when you have a free hand is because the swordmage is often depicted without a shield, so without a greater boost to AC everyone will just use two-handed weapons as there's no reason not to.

What about Dueling< Precision and Two-Weapon fighting styles?

 

[RhaezDaevan]

What about Dueling< Precision and Two-Weapon fighting styles?

Well with two-weapon style you're in the same boat as with two-handed weapons. Dueling/precision would normally be used with a shield if a fighter were using them, which brings it back to swordmage not normally using a shield. Essentially you trade the ability to use a stronger shield (i.e. a +1 or greater magic shield) for the ward that is sort of an innate shield that's always on, but never gets any better.

 

[AslanC]

Posting to get updates for v2.0