[Swordmage] Frigid Blade: One round or two?

[Dayspire]

The phrasing of the power (1st level at-will) is "if the target starts its next turn adjacent to you, it takes a penalty to speed equal to your Con modifier until the end of its next turn".

So does that mean the foe's movement is reduced for one turn or two? Or am I overthinking this?

 

[styker]

Two turns. The turn that it started adjancent to you and his next turn (because the power say "until the end of his next turn")

 

[radja]

I'd say 1 turn. when the enemy is adjacent on its next turn, it is slower until the end of its next turn, which is the turn it just started. a clearer wording would be:

if the target starts its next turn adjacent to you, it takes a penalty to speed equal to your Con modifier until the end that turn

both instances of 'its next turn' refer to the same turn.

 

[Baumi]

I agree with radja.

 

[Dayspire]

Interesting - so this hasn't come up before now? I would have thought an at-will phrased so vaguely would have created more controversy.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

That's actually an intriguing question. What is the "temporal anchor" for the duration of conditions?

I'd be tempted to say that all times are relative to the action that starts the ball rolling, but that runs into problems with Aftereffects, if nothing else.

For such ambiguity to occur, two things are required:

1. The power must have a secondary trigger, such as attacking, being attacked, moving, shifting, saving, becoming bloodied, etc.

2. The result of the secondary trigger must have a duration rather than being instantaneous.

I wonder how many powers share this ambiguity. Another good question: are there any feats that add to the confusion?

 

[Fkewl]

Well, i would rule 2 turns

-It starts it's turn with the penalty
(start of turn, no actions taken yet, penalty applies to move of current turn)

-till end of next turn
(next turn, even if away from the Swordmage, still has the penalty applied on it's move)

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

That's actually an intriguing question. What is the "temporal anchor" for the duration of conditions?

I'd be tempted to say that all times are relative to the action that starts the ball rolling, but that runs into problems with Aftereffects, if nothing else.

For such ambiguity to occur, two things are required:

1. The power must have a secondary trigger, such as attacking, being attacked, moving, shifting, saving, becoming bloodied, etc.

2. The result of the secondary trigger must have a duration rather than being instantaneous.

I wonder how many powers share this ambiguity. Another good question: are there any feats that add to the confusion?

Well, it can't be the same turn because there are tons of powers which read like "the target takes a -2 penalty to all defenses until the end of your next turn" and if you were to use the terminology consistently then these types of debuffs would be useless since it would mean the effect ends as soon as your turn is over. This is clearly not what is intended. Furthermore there are a few powers which actually DO specify that something ends at the end of the current turn. They simply say something like "until the end of your turn" or "until the end of its turn".

So in the specific case the OP is looking at, the aura effect lasts through the monster's current turn and until the end of the turn after that, 2 turns.

 

[Dayspire]

Is there any precedence for a power lasting two turns?

 

[MrMyth]

Well, it can't be the same turn because there are tons of powers which read like "the target takes a -2 penalty to all defenses until the end of your next turn" and if you were to use the terminology consistently then these types of debuffs would be useless since it would mean the effect ends as soon as your turn is over.

I don't think the terminology used for most other powers is comparable. The problem is that this power has a two-fold ignition for the duration - when you hit with the power, and when the opponent starts their turn adjacent to you. Does "it's next turn" refer to the turn following it being hit, or the turn following it starting next to you?

If you can actually find other powers with similar complexities, feel free to bring them forward. (I suspect there are a few similar situations out there, honestly.) But there aren't "tons" of powers which this could be compared to.

Note that in the quote you list, there is only one time-frame the "end of your next turn" can be compared to - when the power is used. Thus, it is easy to figure out that it ends on the following turn. That is a very different situation from the rules question at hand...

For myself, I'd rule that it only lasts one turn, taking both instances of "it's next turn" to refer to the same turn, rather than successive ones. But I'm not going to complain that is the only way to read it - I don't think there is any absolutely correct interpretation until it sees some errata or other clarification.