Swordmage: Help grasping the concept, please

[deganawida]

Since the release of the FRPG, I've been trying to wrap my head around the Swordmage. I cannot seem to grasp the theme of the class. I get that it is supposed to be a warrior-mage, yet it does not come across as one to me. Rather, it feels to me like a wuxia fighter, one which is tied inextricably to the Forgotten Realms.

Can someone help me make sense of what the Swordmage is actually supposed to be and how it's supposed to feel in play? From the aegis to the various sword powers, I cannot get a hold on it. I want to play a warrior-mage, which the Swordmage is supposed to be, yet I keep reeling back from the class which is supposed to fill that role. It is very frustrating to me.

Thanks in advance.

EDIT for Clarity: The Fighter is a simple Defender class to get a grip on. He uses weapons and is extremely dangerous with them. The Paladin is the holy knight, using the power of his god to force enemies to fight him. The Warden manipulates the spirits and the earth to contain enemies. The Swordmage...teleports? Doesn't keep enemies near him? Doesn't force them to attack him? Doesn't do any real magic, just anime-inspired attacks (not a crack at anime, just representative of how the class comes across to me)? I can't even really see the class as a Defender, much less a warrior-mage. I need help.

 

[renau1g]

One option if you're not crazy about the SM, you could try hybriding a fighter/wizard to get that warrior-mage feel. I find the SM to be a class that can't use a weapon decently (unless you take Melee Training) despite what the fluff says. Overall they are more of a wizard as almost all their attacks are some sort of keyword and the only nod to "warrior" is the fact they use a blade for their implement.

 

[deganawida]

One option if you're not crazy about the SM, you could try hybriding a fighter/wizard to get that warrior-mage feel. I find the SM to be a class that can't use a weapon decently (unless you take Melee Training) despite what the fluff says. Overall they are more of a wizard as almost all their attacks are some sort of keyword and the only nod to "warrior" is the fact they use a blade for their implement.

Okay, so I'm not the only person who sees the Swordmage as not quite what it's advertised to be?

Wouldn't a hybrid have role problems? I have to confess that I don't have PHB3 (though I do have DDI), and so have not read up on the hybrid rules.

 

[Obryn]

Swordmages are, at this point, my favorite class. I can see why they're pretty hard to grasp, though, because they do stuff way differently than you might expect.

Take your inital thought of a Warrior-Mage. Then realize that everything the Swordmage does is through spells - they throw hexes on their opponents, summon up the elements, and protect themselves with shields of force. If you ever saw the Mageblade from Arcana Unearthed/Evolved, it's a pretty similar concept. In fact, I think it's the best warrior-mage seen in D&D to-date.

How do they play? Well, a little off the beaten path, honestly. They're part Defender and part Controller.

Their marking mechanic is their Aegis, which is pretty much the meanest thing you can do to a monster without an attack roll or a saving throw. Unique among Defenders, this mark lasts for the entire encounter, works at long range, and doesn't require that the Swordmage engage their foe. In fact, it's often best if they don't - an ideal Swordmage strategy is to run up, mark the biggest, baddest threat, and then teleport off to harass artillery hanging out in back.

Their mark still has the nice "-2 to attack anyone but me" rider, along with some other pretty sweet effects. My personal favorite is the Aegis of Shielding, which will mostly negate a monster's damage on one of your allies - it's pretty much the purest Defender mark out there. The Aegis of Assault, OTOH, is similar to the Fighter's mark, with the added perk that you can teleport next to the enemy (usually into flanking) and smack them. Ensnaring swordmages can bring the enemy to them, but frankly I think it's the poorest choice of the three.

At any rate, by marking an enemy and running away from them, the swordmage sets up a series of choices for their mark, none of which is good. Run after the swordmage and get OA'd? Attack a nearby enemy at -2 and probably do no damage at all? Try and attack the swordmage with the insanely high AC? Marks are all about damned-if-you-do choice trees, and theirs is insanely sweet.

What they're bad at is crowd control. They can't hold a line for anything. They are probably not the best choice for the only Defender in a party.

What you can expect from most swordmages:
(1) Flexible and very powerful defense against a single target
(2) Insane personal mobility with a ton of teleportation
(3) Very high AC, often the highest in the party
(4) Good Solo and Elite lockdown, without even an attack roll
(5) Ranged attacks, to a limited extent, usually within 5.

What you can't expect from Swordmages:
(1) Strong crowd control, except in the very basic sense of dealing small amounts of damage to a group of monsters. You're not going to reasonably defend against more than one enemy per round.
(2) High damage, particularly for Shielding swordmages. It's very possible you'll deal the least in the entire party.
(3) Mobility control, except kinda-sorta for the Ensnaring Aegis. You can't stop a monster from moving, usually - the best you can do is bring them to you.

I hope this helps!

EDIT: Also, I'm not seeing the Realms connection. I know it was presented in the FRPG, but it's very setting-neutral. I'm not running the Realms, but have one anyway.

-O

 

[Klaus]

If you want a warrior-mage, may I point you to the Valorous Bard? Put on chainmail, grab a longsword and shield and focus on weapon-based powers and you're good to go. For extra blasting, multiclass as a sorcerer and take their flashy powers. You'll have a warrior-mage that plays and feels a lot like the old fighter/cleric/magic-user of earlier editions.

 

[deganawida]

Take your inital thought of a Warrior-Mage. Then realize that everything the Swordmage does is through spells - they throw hexes on their opponents, summon up the elements, and protect themselves with shields of force.

Hmm. That seems more to me like a battle-wizard than a warrior-mage. We may have a semantic conflict here, in that warrior-mage means something specific to me, that of a man who fights with both steel and spell equally. The way you describe the swordmage makes it seem as though they only fight with spell, which reflects what I have seen of the powers, in that many involve attacks with the sword and yet do no physical damage.

How do they play? Well, a little off the beaten path, honestly. They're part Defender and part Controller.

Their marking mechanic is their Aegis, which is pretty much the meanest thing you can do to a monster without an attack roll or a saving throw. Unique among Defenders, this mark lasts for the entire encounter, works at long range, and doesn't require that the Swordmage engage their foe. In fact, it's often best if they don't - an ideal Swordmage strategy is to run up, mark the biggest, baddest threat, and then teleport off to harass artillery hanging out in back.

Their mark still has the nice "-2 to attack anyone but me" rider, along with some other pretty sweet effects. My personal favorite is the Aegis of Shielding, which will mostly negate a monster's damage on one of your allies - it's pretty much the purest Defender mark out there. The Aegis of Assault, OTOH, is similar to the Fighter's mark, with the added perk that you can teleport next to the enemy (usually into flanking) and smack them. Ensnaring swordmages can bring the enemy to them, but frankly I think it's the poorest choice of the three.

At any rate, by marking an enemy and running away from them, the swordmage sets up a series of choices for their mark, none of which is good. Run after the swordmage and get OA'd? Attack a nearby enemy at -2 and probably do no damage at all? Try and attack the swordmage with the insanely high AC? Marks are all about damned-if-you-do choice trees, and theirs is insanely sweet.

This helps, in that it gives me a good idea of how the swordmage plays. Personal opinion, but this is probably what throws me off about the swordmage: They don't really engage their targets. It may be limiting, but I see a Defender as holding the line, standing toe-to-toe with his foe. The swordmage, as you so well described, does not do this. I'm not sure that I can come to terms with that, as far as playing one.

EDIT: Also, I'm not seeing the Realms connection. I know it was presented in the FRPG, but it's very setting-neutral. I'm not running the Realms, but have one anyway.

That's probably due to many of the paragon paths for it having Realms-specific fluff in them, and the origins of the swordmages relying heavily upon two specific races (genasi and eladrin), one of which was also (re)introduced in the FRPG. I'm not a fan of the Realms, and so I'm probably over-emphasizing the influence the Realms fluff has on the class.

I hope this helps!

It has, thanks!

 

[Garthanos]

Those are the mechanics here is my take on the flavor.
I had Swordmages all the way back in AD&D (I called them the sword lords or ... sword dancers or blade witches )... I am pretty sure I hadnt even experienced wuxia ;-) They cut through the dimensions with the edges of there blades they spun there weapons about in a hypnotic swirl that entrapped there enemies minds... for me all the energy stuff is mostly side effects of there plane cutting... Now the lightning lasso I skin as the pulling an enemy through space and the lightning is a discharge. My concept was that sufficiently high skill at anything including weapons bleeds in to wizardry.... this archetype makes that wizardry central perhaps before true mastery is achieved. There "martial" elements emphasize timing and pattern analysis.

 

[Kwalish Kid]

Playing an assault swordmage, I do almost everything with a sword attack. Most of these I consider to be a spell-assisted attack. When I teleport in with a mark ability, I make a straight-up basic attack with my sword (usually). I have a magic bastard sword that I can throw 5/10--that's fun. For my money, the swordmage is a blend of warrior and wizard on the defender side.

If you want something similar on the striker side, I suggest that you go with a sorcerer with a feat to gain light or heavy blades as an implement. A dragon or cosmic sorcerer should have a high strength and with a decent con can even get some decent armor (eventually).

 

[renau1g]

Oh and don't forget about Sorcerous Blade Channeling if you go that route.

 

[Obryn]

Hmm. That seems more to me like a battle-wizard than a warrior-mage. We may have a semantic conflict here, in that warrior-mage means something specific to me, that of a man who fights with both steel and spell equally. The way you describe the swordmage makes it seem as though they only fight with spell, which reflects what I have seen of the powers, in that many involve attacks with the sword and yet do no physical damage.

No, I can see the difference - and yes, it's primarily an Arcane class that channels magic and casts spells through their weapons. It's not an armored warrior throwing an occasional fireball or what-have-you. While they do plenty of smacking people with their weapons, the rider effects all have an arcane flavor - like Booming Blade and Greenflame Blade. With that said, it's exactly what I wanted out of fighter/mage characters from the get-go.

This helps, in that it gives me a good idea of how the swordmage plays. Personal opinion, but this is probably what throws me off about the swordmage: They don't really engage their targets. It may be limiting, but I see a Defender as holding the line, standing toe-to-toe with his foe. The swordmage, as you so well described, does not do this. I'm not sure that I can come to terms with that, as far as playing one.

Well, they can engage their targets. In fact, when they do, they're about as effective as most other Defenders. They're quirky in that they're most effective when they don't. I mean, an Assault Swordmage can still teleport into flanking and attack as punishment for violating their mark. A Shielding Swordmage will still almost negate damage when their mark attacks someone else. Those things haven't changed.

That's probably due to many of the paragon paths for it having Realms-specific fluff in them, and the origins of the swordmages relying heavily upon two specific races (genasi and eladrin), one of which was also (re)introduced in the FRPG. I'm not a fan of the Realms, and so I'm probably over-emphasizing the influence the Realms fluff has on the class.

That's possible, but I can tell you from experience that the Realms stuff is very easily ignored. Don't let it influence your opinion on the class; I haven't even needed to reskin anything.

It has, thanks!

Glad to help! Let me know if you have more questions; I think the Swordmage is a pretty remarkable and flavorful class, and one of the best new things in 4e.

-O