swordmage preview - reliable powers with effects?

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

The level 29 daily in the swordmage preview is a reliable attack power that, as an effect, increases your crit range to 19-20 for the duration of the encounter. (This is nice for the swordmage, who--lacking Dex--would otherwise probably not be able to get Heavy Blade Mastery.)

The problem? Since it's reliable, the swordmage has a considerable incentive to miss with the power--so he can improve his crit range for another encounter, too.

The correct response, probably, is just to not make the power reliable or limit the crit benefit to a hit--but, by RAW, how exploitable is this? Can the swordmage choose to "attack the darkness" or whatever with the power whenever he wants--retaining the crit benefit all day long (he'd just "miss" with it again every five minutes or after every short rest), until the end of the encounter where he actually uses it successfully (thereby expending it)?

Dang, I wondered about that power, too, and wanted to post on it.

But I wondered more about the implications of the power - how do "reliable" and "effect" or "miss" effect stack. The simplest answer - and I presume also the correct one - the power is not expanded on a miss, and you get the miss/effect benefit anyway.

That's in interesting way to create something like "Reserve Feats" or the 3.5 Psionic Focus. You can gain a benefit if you do not expend a power.

Interesting thing is that this is more or less an emergent feature of the rules - and until we saw an example of it, we didn't necessarily assume that was possible (or intended/allowed).

 

[Mirtek]

In fact, just the fact that any weapon user with a brain will take the 19-20 crit feat makes the ability fairly sub-par.

Actually it's not as easy as that. Many shielding swordmages won't be able to qualify and even assault swordmages will have to suffer in annother important area (wasting stat points or wasting 1-2 of the freely distributable ability upgrades) to reach 21 Str and 17 Dex to qualify (shielding SMs probably won't reach either of them while assault SMs need to neglect important stats for the unimportant Dex)

Since every single heavy and light blade specific feat requires dex, I'd say they do have a very good reason to invest in it.

The thing is that these feats are not very usefull for a SM. +2 to OAs might be usefull to an assault SM since he is the only build likely to have a Str to actually hit with basic attacks. HBO is usefull to both because now they can at least base their OAs on Int instead of Str but 15 is already a pretty huge investment in Dex for an SM. Going even farther to 17 Dex requires a heavy investment in an useless stat or even using one or more of your free distributable ability upgrades instead of applying them to your real main stats)

I think we will see quite a lot of (mostly shielding) SMs starting with 8-10 Dex (maybe 10-12 if of a race with a Dex bonus), because these feats aren't really worth the cost.

Mostly arcane reach might make it worth to consider starting with 14 Dex, but then you're already suffering somewhere else and still won't get to 17 without hurting your primary scores by directing two of the freely distributable ability upgrades into Dex instead of into them

 

[Iourn]

The level 29 daily in the swordmage preview is a reliable attack power that, as an effect, increases your crit range to 19-20 for the duration of the encounter. (This is nice for the swordmage, who--lacking Dex--would otherwise probably not be able to get Heavy Blade Mastery.)

The problem? Since it's reliable, the swordmage has a considerable incentive to miss with the power--so he can improve his crit range for another encounter, too.

The correct response, probably, is just to not make the power reliable or limit the crit benefit to a hit--but, by RAW, how exploitable is this? Can the swordmage choose to "attack the darkness" or whatever with the power whenever he wants--retaining the crit benefit all day long (he'd just "miss" with it again every five minutes or after every short rest), until the end of the encounter where he actually uses it successfully (thereby expending it)?

I have to say that I don't read the power like that at all. The Reliable aspect of the power cannot extend the duration of the power beyond a single encounter.

You roll to attack a single foe with this power. If you hit then you inflict 7[W] damage, and your weapon scores a critical on 19-20 for this attack and for the rest of the encounter. If you miss, neither of those things happen. But, because the power is Reliable you can try it again with your next standard action.

I really don't see how you're reading it another way. If you gained the increased threat range (for want of a better term) on a miss, then the power would have a "Miss" entry and would explicitly say so.

The only powers in the game that have durations beyond one encounter (or five minutes) unambiguously spell this out in the power's description. That's not the case here.

Or is it me who's missing something?

 

[inati]

It's not extending the power beyond the encounter. Because it's reliable, and has an effect, if you whiff with the power, you gain the effect but still have the power left over due to the reliable tag. Thus, if you miss, you can just save it for another encounter, and enjoy the effect for the rest of the current encounter.

For a level 29 Daily, I actually think it's underpowered, unless it does massive damage on top of the effect. Most other defenders at level 29 should have acquired 19-20 critical ranges long before that.

Although possible, I think pumping points into Dex would do more harm than good for a swordmage. Their high Int already takes care of Reflex and AC, so the benefits of having a high Dex dwindles considerably.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Or is it me who's missing something?

As a general rule: Whenever a power has a "Effect" line, the effect is applied/used - even if the attack misses.

Reliable doesn't say that it negates anything of that. It just means a power is not expended if you miss.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Going even farther to 17 Dex requires a heavy investment in an useless stat or even using one or more of your free distributable ability upgrades instead of applying them to your real main stats)

It's only a useless stat because you're systematically discounting every use it has. It opens up a lot of extremely powerful feats that fit the role of the swordmage perfectly.

Although possible, I think pumping points into Dex would do more harm than good for a swordmage. Their high Int already takes care of Reflex and AC, so the benefits of having a high Dex dwindles considerably.

It's significantly more powerful for them to pick up heavy blade opportunity because they don't use strength at all normally. Additionally their at-wills seem to have slightly heavier effects than those of other defenders.

 

[Mirtek]

It's only a useless stat because you're systematically discounting every use it has.

It's use for AC and Ref are discounted by being a swordmage and having Int as your primary stat.

It opens up a lot of extremely powerful feats that fit the role of the swordmage perfectly.

The only benefit of having high dex as a SM are better initiative and some feats of which Arcane Reach is the most usefull (and the blade feats are at best fillers you take because now that you got the Dex for Arcane Reach you can also grap them (and are still 2 points short of heavy blade mastery and as a shielding SM also several points of Str to low)

It's significantly more powerful for them to pick up heavy blade opportunity

Only significantly more powefull for OAs which only happen rarely (unless the DM is playing the mobs stupid). It's a siginificant investment for a significant boost during an insignificant situation (as all the main uses of Dex are being eclipsed by having Int as a main stat) and being able to take Arcane Reach, which is only thing making it worthwhile (if you can afford a 14 Dex, which races without a Dex bonus have to pay a heavy toll for)